r/law • u/bendubberley_ • 15h ago

Legal News The judge in the Lindsay Clancy case is admonishing jurors who are refusing to follow his instructions

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

10.1k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

2.8k comments sorted by

View all comments

2.2k

u/CriticalInside8272 14h ago

I've served on several juries.  One of the last juries I served on, there was this one woman who just refused to listen to the judge or the law.  She refused to listen to our explanations of the law.  She just kept saying she didn't 'feel' that what we were saying or what the judge was saying was right.  She was really just a very stupid person.  I swear, if I were ever accused of a serious crime, I would refuse a jury trial. 

1.2k

u/Tasty_Cry_3844 13h ago

Jury duty is one of the few times you're engaging with the truest form of the general population. Anything else you do has pre-existing filters that sort of prevent you from engaging with GenPop regularly. 

Our jobs, schools, communities, etc, almost all have some light form of filtering out the dumbest people you've ever interacted with. 

But bless the souls who work the customer service counter at a grocery store because your world is nonstop stupidity. 

409

u/DefN0TtheFB1 12h ago

Even your local grocery store has a socioeconomic bias based on where you live. Good points raised though. We exist in a bubble.

138

u/sailphish 9h ago

Jury duty absolutely has an economic bias as well. Maybe not from the initial letters that get sent out, but by the time the jury is selected there are definitely filters in place.

25

u/AutisticHobbit 7h ago

Eh. Kinda.

My mother was a paralegal, and growing up? Dinner table conversations were about her work, so the talk was about legal proceedings.

She never served on a jury. Neither did her boss. Not once. The refused her every time...reason being is they don't want informed people. They don't want a juror who might know things about the law, and be able to reason out things that they didn't present or catch mistakes that would otherwise go unnoticed. Both sides want...ignorant people. People who really know nothing about anything.

11

u/zlaw32 4h ago

Lawyer here. That’s true most of the time, but sometimes one side will want lawyers/paralegals/(insert educated profession here) because they feel a case is overly complicated and having someone who understands and can explain to the others is beneficial

3

u/AutisticHobbit 2h ago

You would know much better then me. Anecdotally, I can only say my mother never had it happen to her...and her peers reported the same general experience. Then again, it could be somewhat regional and/or that just one of those more complicated cases never came up at the same time.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

25

u/_my_troll_account 9h ago

Isn't it often based on drivers licensure and/or voting registration? Strikes me as a nontrivial filter.

48

u/Altruistic-Piece-485 8h ago

When I served on a jury there were questions we all had to answer in the courtroom with the lawyers from each side and the judge. Most of them were to filter out anyone that had a potential connection to either side or didn't have a solid grasp of the English language but at least one asked the jurors if they thought they couldn't rule solely based on the law and the facts presented in the trial because of personally held moral or ethical reasons.

Theoretically that should filter out people that would rule based on how they 'feel' like in the comment above but in reality those people are probably too dumb to realize thats what they're being asked.

25

u/PersonalityIll9476 7h ago

That's exactly what happened. That juror was like "of course I can make legal judgements" and then the next thing you know they're insisting on their feelings.

18

u/richardcraniumIII 7h ago

Why don't we have Logic classes in public schools? Just kidding - the US loves to produce dumb consumers.

→ More replies (4)

9

u/RobutNotRobot 8h ago

Just say that you believe in the concept of jury nullification and that all cops lie and you can get dismissed from jury duty pretty quickly.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)

23

u/goodbyewawona 9h ago

Also those who can afford financially to work it while being away from their normal jobs and/or have child care in place.

12

u/Wild_Astronaut7090 9h ago

In MA there is paid leave for jury duty & the courts pay you something if it goes longer.

22

u/goodbyewawona 9h ago

That’s good.  Sadly that is not the case in many states/jurisdictions.  When I served I believe I received about $14.00 a day.  Parking was about $6.00 a day. 

→ More replies (4)

10

u/HobomanCat 8h ago

In California Jury duty pay is $15 for the day. Less than the hourly minimum wage here.

3

u/HighSeverityImpact 7h ago

And it only starts on the second day. Meaning the first day is free.

They do pay for mileage from your home to the courthouse, but that's it. It's not roundtrip. Also, it's only 36 cents per mile, not the $.72 federal mileage rate. So really it's a 1/4 of your mileage rate.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/ruat_caelum 8h ago

one of the easiest ways to "Get out" of jury duty is to prove you don't have transportation to the court house. Since most cities don't have FREE public transport or a system that allows REASONABLE travel time, you can be released.

There are many people who simply cannot afford in money or time to be on a jury, such "hardships" are often taken into account.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (4)

4

u/alextxdro 9h ago

I’d argue jury duty aswell, many people don’t get “mail” many others will never show up to jury duty and others will avoid it at all costs so it sort of filters those types out. While I’d consider Walmart more true, just depends which Walmart.

2

u/CoachoftheYear2025 7h ago

Not a big enough one.  We're trapped in here with idiots 

→ More replies (2)

59

u/Significant-Ad213 10h ago

I had a lady threaten to run me over cause she didn't get to use a coupon

An expired coupon.
For a different grocery chain.
In Europe.

8

u/gwhh 8h ago

At least she travels.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/humanreporting4duty 3h ago

Juror number 3 could you please stick to the trial at hand?

→ More replies (3)

97

u/ThisIsAPoemToMyself 12h ago

I never thought of it that way. Makes sense because I tend to think oh everyone around me is pretty reasonable, but I'm also in my own little bubble here

56

u/Tasty_Cry_3844 12h ago

Yep, there are so many micro filters around us that weed people out of the places we go and who we interact with. Recruiters, prices, distance from public transit, etc., are all tiny sorting filters that keep us from engaging with the dumbest people on earth. 

Again, unless you're call center or a pharmacy or something. 

22

u/unaskthequestion 10h ago

Then one of the places we really need a filter, our political leadership, where the qualifications are over 18 and breathing. And breathing is optional.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/No-Drama-187 10h ago

Ohhhh yes. THA call center.

If I ever strike it rich, I'm taking 1-week call center jobs just for the people-watching and CPS stories.

3

u/Fryboy11 8h ago

Oh god, I lasted two weeks at a call center in college. We took calls for dealership service departments that were multiple states away from us, to book appointments, help people confirm if they wanted to use the dealerships concierge service, aka if your issue will be fixed in under one day the dealer has a driver who will drop you off and pick you up anywhere within 25 miles of the dealership, or help them sort a loaner car for longer repairs.

The worst were the people who had like a two hour fix and would complain they couldn't have a loaner car, and call back over, and over, trying to get someone else on the phone. It's not like our computer system logs your calls and we fill in a quick summary about why you're calling.

The next worse were the people who wanted to know when their car would be ready. Okay, let me connect you to someone in the service department. "Why can't you just go down and check?" Because I am in a call center hundreds of miles from your car in Missouri.

Then the Racism, I knew your accent was weird I demand to speak to an American, you probably don't even understand me, english pro favor.

Yes you probably can't understand me because unlike Mississippi here in MN we don't say yall, or aint, or I say you I dropped it off. Here let me transfer you to an American, then put them on hold, then take them off and using my same voice ask them how I could help. Most people didn't notice.

By the end I just started putting them into endless loops that would call a line on the dealership that I knew would ring out and ask them to leave a message for our call center. Even that got boring, so I just quit

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (1)

98

u/No-Drama-187 10h ago

This is TRUE. Very well put.

I showed up for jury selection interested in serving, then realized that my fellow citizens were a sample of some of the absolute most stupid people I had ever encountered in the wild.

All I could think to myself was "Where did they all come from, though....? Why so many....? Wait, they can VOTE??"

We're fucking cooked.

39

u/Ordinary-Egg-56 9h ago

remember it’s not their fault.

i’m just kind of realizing this but it’s not their fault.

our institutions have failed us: whether it’s failures in our education system, lies spread by the mainstream media, or a culture where intelligence and intellectual curiosity is looked down on.

regular people can only do so much with the resources they have.

and by “our institutions” i actually mean that republicans are solely to blame for the failures of these systems.

edit: btw the judges words nearly brought a tear to my eye. if only our justice system actually worked in the manner intended.

→ More replies (16)

2

u/StinzorgaKingOfBees 6h ago

The last few years have taught me something. I used to think I was a little bright than the average American, but not much. I always hung out with people more intelligent and more confident than me. Then I saw how easily so many people were grifted, lied to, and just plain didn't do any kind of self-reflection into their lives or thoughts. Then I realized I'm MUCH smarter than the average American. And that doesn't make me feel good, it fucking terrifies me because I don't feel very smart at all

→ More replies (2)

107

u/SnowedAndStowed 11h ago

I’m a nurse. There’s no filter for me and a lot of people are DUMB.

44

u/Front-Psychology7854 9h ago

I was in the ER with an infection in my blood and in quite a bad way, only thing I really remember is a nurse yelling at a lady saying how gratefully she should be that her concern is only a sprained ankle and points at me and goes "you don't want the attention that guy is getting, and be grateful that you don't need that many doctors and nurses." She was complaining that it was unfair that I was getting prioritised over her daughter with a sprained ankle and it was taking too long.

33

u/onelongwheelie 8h ago

I was at the hospital on a backboard in a room shared with another patient. She was absolutely screaming in agonizing pain. After a few minutes, I asked through the curtain what was wrong with her - she had a broken toe. I then replied with "I have a broken neck, shut the fuck up."

→ More replies (1)

29

u/bannana 9h ago

good lord, going to the ER for sprain is going to have you sitting there for 14hrs

→ More replies (1)

16

u/Healthy-Amoeba2296 8h ago

there is a cartoon with sailors at a bar. The guy with the peg leg is complaining that his suffering demands respect. The guy next to him has a peg-head.

12

u/ruat_caelum 8h ago

you definitely don't want to be the example an ER nurse is pointing to. If you weren't worried before I bet you were after.

Like of ALL these people it's me? "Am I gonna die?"

3

u/MrSurly 8h ago

Who in the fuck goes to ER for a sprain?

→ More replies (3)
→ More replies (2)

23

u/abluetruedream 9h ago

I’m a school nurse and was just talking with a nurse colleague this morning about being brand new nurse 15yrs ago and quickly realizing how many people are below average intelligence. It’s not even their fault much of the time.

9

u/RobustManifesto 8h ago

Think about how stupid the average person is, and realize half of people are stupider than that. - George Carlin

3

u/MrSurly 8h ago

"Just think about how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of them are stupider than that!"

-- George Carlin

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (9)

58

u/enadiz_reccos 11h ago

GenPop lol

4

u/GarminTamzarian 8h ago

"Can I please talk to someone in solitary?"

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)

48

u/Gnarwhal8982 10h ago

Working at a high-end health food store in a conservative state during the pandemic really did a number on me. 

It’s hard to describe the amazing level of stupidity and hostility from the wealthy, successful, and educated- especially when they’re very certain of themselves about their stances on masks, vaccines, yada yada 

2020 is when it started to feel like people in real life were acting the way people on the internet do, like before that there was a bifurcation- it was trolls and assholes on the internet but mostly good, positive people in real life. That changed and now it’s like there’s trolls and assholes everywhere

It ruined “people” for me 

13

u/SuspiciousBear3069 8h ago

As a small business owner I can tell you that that was pretty much a universal experience in covid times and there's been nearly no recovery since.

In my wildest imagination I couldn't have imagined people wearing masks below their chins or believing that they were designed to filter things going in.

So many instances of employees telling me what's true about how the world works when just basic eyeball usage would completely disprove their assertion.

It takes a lot of time energy to get smart and apparently just a brief period of the unknown to undo all of that effort.

I love in a wealthy town and absolutely refuse to say the name of my town to anyone outside of town, I always list the next town over. Only by engaging with the wealthy can you really understand that intelligence isn't what does it.

6

u/Tasty_Cry_3844 9h ago

I oddly worked at a health-food store about 10 years before that and I totally know what you mean. I cannot fathom what that audience thought of the pandemic. I used to tell people that we'd get more complaints about the products we do carry than the ones we don't. Meaning people would walk up to the front of the store and hold a products ingredient list in my face and tell me how bad that is. 

People DEFINITELY brought their online selves into the real world and it's AWFUL. The entitlement is other level and it feels like everyone has prioritized getting "theirs". 

5

u/ruat_caelum 8h ago

especially when they’re very certain of themselves about their stances on masks, vaccines, yada yada

We have a (married into) family member who is a lawyer who has dealt with HIPAA stuff.

Dude's head about exploded from all the misinformation and idiots during covid.

He texted once, "It's like they think it's a magic fucking word. Just shout HIPAA and you will get what you want."

→ More replies (2)

29

u/Feeling_Inside_1020 11h ago

If you worked in IT and/or customer service no need to imagine how stupid the gen pop is lol

2

u/Willing-Cucumber-595 6h ago

Even some coworkers in IT roles, I just shake my head in wonder at how they scored their job.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)

5

u/unaskthequestion 10h ago

Yeah, retail was the first thing I thought of as another place. It's one of those things you only really understand if you've had a job in the service industry

12

u/archenlander 11h ago

I mean juries are filtered by both the prosecution and the defense

→ More replies (1)

16

u/crustyrusty91 11h ago

It's not a perfect representation of the general population because there are a few notable exclusions.

First, because many jurisdictions use voter rolls as the basis of the jury pool, many people who are excluded from the voter rolls due to institutional racism or other factors will never be on jury duty.

Second, for obvious reasons, you're never going to see an attorney on a jury. For practical reasons, you probably won't see full-time students who are out of state at the time. People who can't speak english or american sign language are generally excluded.

Of course, all of this means that the eligible jury pool is going to be more white and more conservative than the community it represents. In other words, your average jury is even dumber than the general population.

4

u/Tasty_Cry_3844 10h ago

Yeah, I saved my favorite saying about jurors and not wanting to go to a jury trial:

"Do you really trust your life in the hands of people too dumb to get out of jury duty?" 

→ More replies (1)

3

u/acelana 9h ago

There are a ton of other exclusions too. Off the top of my head, breastfeeding mothers, anybody even slightly related to law enforcement (I know somebody who was excluded because “my husband’s cousin is a cop”), non citizens, even permanent residents (which can be a huge percentage of the population depending on where you live)

3

u/TocasLaFlauta 11h ago

This was my biggest takeaway - it was a brutally even cross-section of my very diverse county.

3

u/CelestialFury 9h ago

Jury duty is one of the few times you're engaging with the truest form of the general population.

I hate to say this, but it ends up being true all too often; jury duty is filled up with people who can't figure out how to get out of jury duty. Now it's our civic duty to participate in jury duty, but most well off and upper middle class people get out of doing it, so what we're left with is the few people who takes that obligation seriously and the ones who do it for the money and/or can't get out of it themselves. People getting out of jury duty shifts entire juries into making more... not so smart people on them. You don't see many millionaires and billionaires on it for a reason.

5

u/Kagahami 10h ago

Disagreed. Lawyers get to cherry pick who they don't want on juries, and the biases that come out when certain jurors are excluded shows in the content of our juries.

2

u/Witty_Ad_898 9h ago

It’s not as simple as the people being stupid. Their ideas, their beliefs, their opinions on every little minutiae of life have gone unexamined until they have to weigh them against one person’s future and another’s demand for justice. 

So many go through life with unearned confidence in their identity, their beliefs, their opinions, and the world around them. When these begin to crumble, they lose their words and their sense of the way of things. It is traumatizing. Many just shut off the inconvenient reality and dig into their unexamined beliefs.

2

u/santiagoqr1 9h ago

If it were random and couldn’t be dismissed and replaced then you’d be right, but remember that the jury is cherry picked by each side, they make sure they have half men and half women and that’s about it, and that will probably soon go away, everything else is picked (or vetoed) by each side, race, age, creed, education, socioeconomic status, everything is carefully selected to have a jury that is more likely to bend one way or another, large firms have partners that are solely dedicated to picking the right jurors, they are experts in pattern recognition and are basically mind readers hired by law firms to select what juror would be best for their case.
Trial by jury is a joke.

2

u/BigBankHank 9h ago

The first day anyway. Sadly for the cause of justice, nobody who has actually experienced the system first hand (lawyers not included) ever gets on a jury. Generally anyone who has close family in the system is struck straightaway.

2

u/crashcraddock 9h ago

DMV is the big one

2

u/HolyInlandEmpire 9h ago

Interacting regularly with the bottom 20% makes someone see the world so very differently.

2

u/TatonkaJack 9h ago

I never considered myself much more smart or reasonable or anything than the average person until I started working with juries. Now I have a very jaded view of what average means.

2

u/AnonAmbientLight 8h ago

But bless the souls who work the customer service counter at a grocery store because your world is nonstop stupidity.

Hello. :)

2

u/jj119crf 8h ago

This is exactly how social media and the internet in general are ruining the world. The dumbest people on the planet, that now get to broadcast their opinions to the entire world, with no filter or disclaimer of any type. These same people would be shamed, or just flat out ignored by anyone who actually interacted with them personally, but online it's much harder to tell that you're interacting with a single celled organism.

→ More replies (59)

384

u/cC2Panda 13h ago

My mom was the foreman on a jury once and there was one woman who refused to convict despite there being literal photographs of the man with the gun from the security cameras. After a full day of deliberating and trying to convince the hold out she came back the next morning and flipped her vote. My mom asked what changed her mind and she said, "well I was watching the news and he was arrested again for robbing another gas station".

They weren't sequestered but they were supposed to avoid the news and so they had to do a bunch of stuff to try to unfuck this stupid ass jurors inability to listen to basic instruction for 2 days.

94

u/thisispaulc 10h ago

Can a juror be punished for wilfully failing to follow an instruction like that?

75

u/Frequent_Opportunist 10h ago

Yes. You can be sent to jail for contempt of court. I don't think there's any limitation on it either.

→ More replies (1)

39

u/Flip_d_Byrd 10h ago

Banned from serving on future juries?...... Hey, I have an idea...

69

u/sylentshooter 10h ago

Technically they could be found in contempt of court and charged. 

12

u/Flip_d_Byrd 10h ago

Ya... That would make more sense.

→ More replies (7)

7

u/delphinous 9h ago

they can be held in contempt of court, possible multiple times, which has escalating penalties and could result in potential jail time.

3

u/TacTurtle 5h ago

Yes, they can (and should) be immediately ejected from the jury and replaced with an alternate juror that has also sat through the trial.

2

u/asher1611 10h ago

Yes, that can be held in contempt of court (which in my state (USA) can put you in jail for up to 30 days)

2

u/Party-Cartographer11 9h ago

Contempt if provable.

→ More replies (13)

3

u/YrNxtHusbando 9h ago

I'm paranoid that the outlier juror is someone who has been on social media and thinks Patrick did it.

3

u/YouGlittering9156 5h ago

Holy room temperature IQ... I would have been wondering if I was on a TV show, waiting for Ashton Kutcher to come out and tell me that I just got Punk'd

→ More replies (1)

84

u/Nikotinlaus 13h ago

If I was guilty I prefer the jury trial. Decent chance for them to come to the wrong conclusion. If I was innocent hell no for the jury for the same reason.

43

u/Lets_G0_Pens 12h ago

This is an age-old lesson about jury trials! Innocent people are more likely to plead down to a lesser crime. Guilty people take their chance.

14

u/Kendallsan 6h ago

That is massively fucked up

→ More replies (6)

7

u/RobutNotRobot 8h ago

I'd also choose a bench trial but you have to remember that judges are often also politicians and there is not a lot of incentive for them to find defendants not guilty.

Also might be less grounds for appeal.

The truth that people really don't want to hear is that damn near everything is the luck of the draw as a defendant. The judge, the jury, hell the region of the country you are in. And of course your skin color, ethnicity and whether or not the jurors want to come back on Monday to deliberate some more.

4

u/Gloomy-Cover7669 12h ago

That is a very interesting observation.

2

u/mspk7305 6h ago

That strongly depends on your attorney

→ More replies (1)

55

u/davewashere 11h ago

Serving on a jury made me terrified that a jury of my peers would ever find anything close to justice. I rarely get to hear the thought process of random people, and when I did I found too many of them were aggressively stupid and proud of it. It was not a good experience for shaping my worldview. 

4

u/backpackrack 1h ago

I have sat in on plenty of jury trials and holy shit I can't even believe these people have drivers licenses or the ability to tie their shoes.

Weirdly enough it wasn't the stupidity that stunned me but the lack of any kind of basic reasoning or logical thought. Some VERY intelligent people are hilariously stupid in so many ways.

→ More replies (2)

42

u/meggs_n_ham 11h ago

I was on the jury for a case where a brother killed his abusive brother in self defense. Lost my cool when one of the other jurors kept saying "well I wouldn't do that," thus somehow proving guilty of murder. Dumb people are our peers.

3

u/spartaman64 10h ago

idk if its the case for all self defense cases but ironically for a gun case thats the test. its called the reasonable person standard and it asks if a reasonable person would be in fear of their life and defend themselves with a gun. so hes saying in his opinion it fails the reasonable person standard

3

u/meggs_n_ham 10h ago

No gun, he protected himself with a knife while being pursued down the street. The other juror was saying "well I wouldn't even go home" to be around the victim in the first place.

→ More replies (11)

638

u/DarthHM 13h ago

I had a law professor who said “do you really want to be judged by 12 people who were too dumb to get out of jury duty?”

19

u/FoldMaximum2400 12h ago

I mean I was pretty pumped to get jury duty. A week off work (fortunate to be salaried) and I get to be a part of a trial? Sign me up. Unfortunately only got called up to the courtroom once and they didn’t make it through enough alternates to get to me.

4

u/ccosby 8h ago

I wasn't pumped but was generally interested when I served. I figured it couldn't be as bad as everyone said and was the youngest and the foreman. My case was on an easement issue and it was clear some of the others on the jury had never owned property and didn't really understand them. Good news is it was a 1 day case and I was done.

Honestly wouldn't have any problem doing it again as long as its under a week. I'm too busy at work to do longer. I'd take it seriously as I'd hope whoever was on a jury if I was the defendant.

6

u/DicemonkeyDrunk 12h ago

That’s the thing…I’d happily go if they paid me my normal wage…it’s not like they don’t know what it is ..they sure as hell tax it. Easy solution right there.

→ More replies (6)

151

u/blklab16 12h ago

I’d take a jury of my actual peers though… like give me 12 millennials with doctorates and I’m in!

67

u/RoguePlanet2 10h ago

I've always taken jury duty seriously, because it's an important part of a functioning democracy 🤷🏻‍♀️ I'm a GenX with a B.A. and good emotional intelligence.

20

u/blklab16 10h ago

I would accept you on my jury! I don’t envy the jurors on this case though, I would absolutely need therapy myself after

15

u/Salt-Competition-552 10h ago

Much in the same vein of RoguePlanet2, I'm an elder millennial with a BS in comp sci and halfway through an MBA. I did my time in the navy and it absolutely opened my eyes to what the lowest common denominator is in a given group. Empathy is crucial to a functional society. Also, as a government employee I'm obligated to serve jury duty if called. its a necessity to keep everything humming along.

3

u/RoguePlanet2 9h ago

TIL it's mandatory for gov't employees. Just thought it was expected regardless.

3

u/Salt-Competition-552 8h ago edited 8h ago

The government pays your wages while you're on jury duty. Unless you have another extenuating circumstance, you're sitting on that jury.

Edit: My literacy after a couple beers isn't what it should be.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (7)

13

u/JS-87 11h ago

Sorry your jury just stuck their fingers in their ears and went "la-la-la-la-la"

4

u/ElectricJunglePig 9h ago

You seem sufferable... I'm sure there isn't a reason the rest of us would give you the chair.

2

u/Chacin_Cologne_No1 7h ago

Be careful there, monkey paw. There are two ends of the spectrum for idiosyncratic thinking that can cook your goose: the really dumb, and the really smart.

2

u/NoGlzy 5h ago

I'd think about that for a minute more.

I play board games with that section of society and that is the exact niche of "have an idea about something in the first 5 minutes and stubbornly refuse to change your mind about it despite all evidence to the contrary"

→ More replies (5)

248

u/jdubyahyp 13h ago

This is more of a problem then a joke. Peoples unwillingness to participate in either government, juries, or other responsibilities as citizens deserve what they get. Sadly we are about to get it soon I think. Skipping out on jury duty is neanderthal thinking.

93

u/ContextLengthMatters 12h ago

There's also a huge problem with the modern jury that is expected to be unbiased in a modern world where social media is ubiquitous, as if the 24/7 news cycle wasn't bad enough. This entire case is absolute trash and a mockery of the system itself.

The contamination of these cases is absurd and it's an open circus that everyone is simply continuing to pretend doesn't exist as if we can just live like this forever. The most apt comparison of the absurdity of placating for the rule of law is how everyone tries to pretend we still live in a democracy and sane-wash our king.

28

u/jdubyahyp 12h ago

Oh yes, the courts and laws are so far behind the technology it's laughable.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (27)

157

u/Pl0OnReddit 13h ago

Some people need their jobs to live and can't just skip out on weeks or months of work for the pitiful stipend most juries offer

24

u/cubicthe 10h ago

and to compound that problem - jury duty has been considered acceptable involuntary servitude [Butler v. Perry, 240 U.S. 328 (1916)] - i.e. it's a form of slavery that's okay because society. thus, you don't get paid even minimum wage even though if the same county paid me to shit in a park I'd get $20/hr for the effort

it really highlights how hypocritical the legal system is, telling us all how important and equitable everything is while not even giving it basic societal support

→ More replies (6)
→ More replies (49)

33

u/HeyIDoubtIt 11h ago

It's not neanderthal thinking, it's fucking survival.

Serving on a jury would leave me unable to pay my rent and destroy my bank account. Fuck that.

Pay the jurors a living wage while they do their jobs and this problem disappears.

3

u/AllenRBrady 9h ago

That's why, in my opinion, it's time to explore the idea of professional jurors. If we can have an army of people whose job is to argue the law, we could have a corps of people whose full-time, salaried job is to hear cases, follow the court's instructions and remain impartial.

4

u/CarpetNibbler 8h ago

You mean like judges?

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (6)

23

u/iamthedayman21 12h ago

It’s not an unwillingness to participate. It’s a system where most people aren’t being paid while they’re on jury duty. Blame the system, not the people.

→ More replies (1)

35

u/DicemonkeyDrunk 13h ago

Some of us have jobs that don’t pay us for jury duty and jury duty pays nothing to almost nothing. It’s a flaw in the system. I was called a month ago and had to take the day off to report…I lost a days pay and several hours.

→ More replies (26)

7

u/Several-Action-4043 12h ago

I've wanted to be on a Jury forever. I've only been called in twice. The first time I never even made it into consideration. The second time, Covid happened and they canceled.

3

u/troyandabedinabed 11h ago

Same, except they dismissed me the second time because I said I didn't trust cops and would have a problem sending somebody away on their testimony.

→ More replies (6)

3

u/dramboxf 11h ago

I got challenged off a jury because the prosecutor used a quote by Thomas Jefferson to the judge and I leaned over to the guy next to m and said "Jefferson." BAM I was gone. They don't want smart people on juries. EITHER SIDE. They want people they can lead and persuade.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/Iggyhopper 12h ago

Getting paid peanuts for something you're good at is neanderthal thinking.

I'd rather make money, pay taxes, and use that money to better society so jury duty is a better experience for all, but woe is me.

→ More replies (6)

2

u/mikecandih 11h ago

It’s not that I’m unwilling. I just have a serious job that needs my daily attention and I’m the manager so even though I’m getting paid my regular wage all I can think of is the stack of actual work that’s building up for me. Or serious timelines that cannot be missed. Ironically was never summoned when I was working retail part time. But that would’ve sucked too because Target wasn’t going to pay me for the required leave so I’d be getting $15/day or whatever it is and not be able to pay my bills.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/highcoolteacher 11h ago

I jumped up and down when I got a recent jury summons. I’m so excited. Last time, everyone was dismissed bc no juries were needed

Civic participation is important

→ More replies (1)

2

u/AdminsFluffCucks 11h ago

It's only neanderthal thinking if you can potentially miss work for months.

Last time I was summoned was for a murder case. I have a mortgage. I did everything I could to get out of jury duty because Im not losing my house because the courthouse doesn't even pay me enough per day to cover my gas to and from the courthouse.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (24)

2

u/VelvetOverload 11h ago

No, you didn't

2

u/Remarkable-Word-1486 10h ago

I would rather be judged by 12... Than carried by 6

2

u/LewdMortal 10h ago

Or people who take jury duty seriously enough to try not to get out of it. Rather that than people who are trying to get out ASAP willing to vote whatever lets them go faster.

Both times I’ve had jury duty they were murder trials. One 8 weeks and another 2 weeks. Both were super interesting and deliberating with the other jurors was so much fun. I don’t understand why people avoid it unless they have a legitimate reason, but everyone is different I guess.

2

u/424f42_424f42 9h ago

Dumb? Short work days, short commute, lunch break, I still get paid (work pays unlimited Jury days).... Sign me up more (really .. it's been 12 years )

→ More replies (20)

222

u/Farlandan 12h ago

I've found this similar outlook with a lot of highly religious people.

They get this idea in their head the truth isn't facts and evidence, it's something you "feel."

104

u/friend_jp 11h ago

That’s because it’s their whole fucking identity. Feeling.

4

u/GiraffeSpicyFries 7h ago

Just got to have "faith".

→ More replies (2)

14

u/Kira_Caroso 10h ago

You see it all the time on Facebook and Twitter. It is how conspiracy groups became mainstream.

29

u/keegums 11h ago

Because all religion and spirituality are entirely predicated upon emotional intensity. Otherwise all the mythology would be any other story, the morality tales would be legalism, and the cognitive beliefs would be like any other information consumed

→ More replies (3)

5

u/jpk195 Competent Contributor 10h ago

I believe the technical terms is "vibes"

5

u/Professional_You_943 10h ago

Because that idea is carefully cultivated in their head by their religious leaders from childhood 

→ More replies (16)

177

u/Anon_bunn 13h ago

I had a similar situation. To be selected for the jury, we all had to swear that we were willing to give the mandatory minimum sentence that we wouldn’t refuse to give it just because it was the mandatory minimum. Lo and behold… guess who was uncomfortable “giving the minimum” when it came time to decide sentencing? This was a murder trial in Houston, where the jury had to decide the verdict and the  sentence.

So three women flat refused the five-year minimum. (This was a case where it was self defense, but he didn’t qualify for self defense under the law because he technically instigated. And he called 911 right away - all on video.) when we couldn’t get them to agree to five, the jury immediately jumped to 10. 

I was only voice to point out that 10 years is 200% of 5 years. And we finally settled on 7. Literally if I hadn’t been there, they would’ve gone from. Nope we can’t do 5? Okay 10 - just because it’s the next round number. 

I left the room despising those people. This man had a special needs child. He wasn’t a dangerous person. The man he killed was demonstrably dangerous. This guy just made a horrible horrible permanent decision on that day. Devastating. My heart is racing just thinking about it.

44

u/miwi81 13h ago

It’s hard for me to imagine a scenario where a person who instigated a fight and killed someone would only deserve 5 years. And I don’t think that the special needs child is really a factor in a murder sentence.

53

u/blahblah19999 13h ago

"Technically instigated" must mean something important here. I can imagine a scenario where there's a dangerous person and someone attacks them in preemptive self defense.

60

u/Anon_bunn 13h ago

It does. The law in Texas is written a certain way, and the jury was given specific instructions. 

He pushed over a man’s shopping cart when the man wouldn’t leave the area. He’d called the police two times before that to trespass the man and the police never showed up. When he pushed the cart, the deceased attacked him. He could’ve done a dozen other things instead of pushing the cart over. He could’ve walked away, he could’ve waited in his car, etc. 

The shopping cart push began a series of events that led to deadly force being used. 

The accused had no history of violence, lots of character witnesses. 

DA wouldn’t offer a plea deal less than 30 years, the DA insisted on trying him for murder. Tragedy all around.

27

u/WelderNewbee2000 13h ago

Well he was probably black, or poor, or worse, both so of course the DA wouldn't offer a deal.

9

u/mydaycake 12h ago

I would have interpreted as the first instigators to be the one not moving the cart when instructed

7

u/legal_stylist 10h ago edited 10h ago

I’d reeeeeealy like to hear those jury instructions because I am frankly doubtful that you lose your right to self defense in Texas simply by taking a provocative action initially that doesn’t even involve touching a person or threatening to touch them.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (10)

10

u/enad58 13h ago

Agreed, my kid is special needs and I'm a fuckin' prick. A nonviolent prick, but a prick nonetheless.

6

u/jawknee530i 11h ago

Two guys arguing. Guy one instigates by shoving guy two. Guy two punches guy one. Guy one punches back and guy two falls weirdly hitting the back of his head and dies. It's really not hard to imagine these situations.

7

u/miwi81 11h ago

That’s still just a fight where guy1 attacks guy2 and kills him

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Interactive_CD-ROM 13h ago

The average time served for murder in the U.S. is 13 years.

2

u/Atys1 7h ago

Depends on the definition of "instigated" really. But that user didn't actually give us enough information to make a judgment ourselves.

3

u/Rahodees 7h ago

So to make sure I understand that first pargraph:

Someone on the jury was saying "I won't agree to five years because five years is the minimum and we should never just give somebody a minimum punishment"?

2

u/MrFrode Biggus Amicus 10h ago

If they want to play that game could you just vote Not Guilty and force a mistrial in hopes the next Jury is better?

2

u/Past_Teaching_5939 7h ago

fun fact: those "mandatiry minimum" or death penalty qualified jurors are substantially more likely to convict. because the questioning weeds pit those morally against those. ie defense mimded people

→ More replies (4)

37

u/Kardiiac_ 13h ago

There's a reason jury nullification is a thing. A person can feel a law is wrong or unjust. That's the downside of jury trials and why lawyers and judges try really hard to only have juries with people who agree the law should be followed to the t.

9

u/man_eating_mt_rat 11h ago

It wasn't a downside during slave times. Some laws are unjust.

4

u/adventurekiwi 7h ago

It was a downside for the ones who benefitted from the injustice though

2

u/Future-Slice-8502 3h ago

jury nullification was also the reason lynchings could be so brazen and common after slavery. It’s a double edged sword.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/WithMeDoctorWu 7h ago

... lawyers and judges try really hard to only have juries with people who agree the law should be followed to the t

I've been on a jury exactly once, years ago on a charge of driving under marijuana influence. During selection we all got asked what we thought of weed not (yet) having been decriminalized here. There were several people dismissed for their answers. When it came to me I said it's possible to think a law unjust but still consider oneself bound by it. I ended up selected.

We returned an acquittal because of a couple of claims in the state's case that seemed at odds with the police car dash cam. On top of which most of us were gut-level offended by the arresting cop's behavior, which came across as racially motivated.

First vote was 11-1. The dissenter was a middle-aged white woman very agitated by being outnumbered. It came to a head when she said something like, "I'm a conservative and I strongly disapprove of smoking dope and driving" -- at which point it was simple enough to point out that our job wasn't to judge whether that was a bad thing, just whether the state had proved it happened in this particular case, and she had to admit they hadn't. She was still pretty unhappy about it, but we managed to get out of there and make it home for dinner, yay.

Definitely one of the more interesting days of my life.

→ More replies (5)

15

u/TocasLaFlauta 11h ago

My one and only jury duty was for a murder trial, and we were deadlocked. We gave a note after I think 4 days of deliberation, judge asked us to try harder, I think we went 2 or 3 more days and were still deadlocked. After our second note judge declared it a mistrial. We had one holdout who was very smart and felt the case wasn't solid enough. But yea, we also had a few jurors who didn't understand the basic case and were not too bright.

4

u/guthepenguin 11h ago

Mine was a personal injury case and we were done in 90 minutes or so after going through it twice. A week of deliberation would have been rough. Do the lawyers and the defendant and everyone just sit in the courtroom all that time and wait? Or do they just have the jury do their thing and gather everyone once a decision is made - if it is?

3

u/GrumpyKaeKae 8h ago

They usually are dismissed from court while a jury deliberates. But are "on call" if the jury comes back or the judge needs everyone back in court.

→ More replies (1)

15

u/UniqueMeasurement0 12h ago

I was once on jury duty. All of us came to a guilty conclusion after a few hours except for one lady who didn’t want to convict him because she felt bad he would go to jail.

3

u/Zealousideal-Ad4362 4h ago

we almost had the same situation... 1 person felt that the Old man(80ish) who was going 55 in a 30 WHILE INTOXICATED and ran into someone walking .. shouldn't be convicted for it becuase.."he is on a fixed income and getting convicted would be too hard on him".. they didn't even respond to th 20something that he hit and seriously injured them.."they have plenty of time to recover" was literally thier attitude. didn't mater to them that he could have easily killed them... "well that didn't happen"

finally was only able to get them to listen after the judge ordered them that they must follow the instrucitons. And if they believe he was intoxicated, speeding, OR hit the defendant. that he is guilty and we must return a guilty verdict.. doesn't matter what you feel about it.. she finally relented

→ More replies (1)

8

u/No_Rub2475 12h ago

I have been called to jury duty now twice- you are absolutely correct. I don’t wanna be mean to my city but  the IQ there feels like a warm room temperature for the potential jurors,  and logic is very hard to follow when people have so many feelings. Then it becomes the big Lawyer show.

6

u/SASSIESASSQUATCH 12h ago

Same, I do not trust my fellow Americans at all. Bench trial for me all the way.

→ More replies (1)

7

u/Middle-Nerve1732 10h ago edited 10h ago

I had a similar experience. I was on a jury and after 2 weeks of testimony I was like … oh thank god this should be like a 5 second deliberation then we can finally be done. But sure enough there was one person on the jury who wasn’t convinced and the more we argued with them the more they became flustered and dug in. It was so bad. In the end we got them to agree on the worst charges so we just took that and let the others go. Makes me stressed out just thinking about it. 

It was very similar to what you describe in that they just didn’t “feel” the defendant was guilty. This person ignored all the testimony of the expert witnesses (I suspect a lot of it went over their head anyways), and just made up their mind and nothing was going to change it. 

8

u/plierhead 9h ago

I was foreman on a jury trial a few years ag and we had someone like that on the jury. She kept saying "I just don't see why she (the accused) would do that (commit that crime)". She wasn't able to follow the judge's instructions at all, as she couldn't keep two consecutive thoughts in her head.

The only thing that saved the situation was that once it became 11 v 1, she quickly backed down.

11

u/leoninebasil 13h ago

Yeah I did duty for the first time this year and I would never ever select a jury trial if I had a choice.

It was shocking to see how some people think.

4

u/zeekayz 12h ago

But as a defendant you ALWAYS take jury (if you can't plea deal). You just need one stupid or one smart person out of 12 (depending on circumstances) and you're free. To have 12 out of 12 agree on guilty is not easy. No sane lawyer will ever recommend you don't do jury if plea deal doesn't work out.

3

u/tweakingforjesus 10h ago

Check out this trial in Potsdam NY. The defense was so worried about the racist town folk, they opted for a bench trial.

https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/five-year-journey-garrett-phillips-case-n657616

5

u/Minimum_Nothing_9039 13h ago

I think you would want that type of jury if it kept you out of jail. But hey everyone interprets things differently.

→ More replies (1)

6

u/CaseFace5 10h ago

I am ever thankful that the only Jury I actually served on we were all in agreement that the cop involved in the case we were dealing with was a dipshit that didnt do his job correctly and the defendant was not guilty.

5

u/Salt-Detective1337 9h ago

Totally. Juries are no different than the comment section of any post about the trial. There are folks who all they see is murdered kids, and if there is a better than not chance she done it, they don't care about anything else. You get one of them on a jury, and nothing else matters.

6

u/Dreamsfordays 8h ago

I served on a jury one time for a traffic accident. People were going back and forth without considering evidence. I took out a pen and mapped out the intersection. A cop testified under oath what the traffic pattern was. I took everyone through the defendant’s attestation and what the traffic pattern would need to be for him to be innocent (which wasn’t possible with the police testimony). This one idiot kept circling back to “but what if”…there are no what ifs. The light goes from yellow arrow to red. His story does not fit. We got there eventually but I lost a lot of faith in “a jury of your peers” that day.

4

u/DriverAgreeable6512 12h ago

I was in a murder case and was worried we would have someone like that. Thankfully it went smooth. 

4

u/Dan-D-Lyon 11h ago

If you're innocent get a bench trial, but if you're guilty go for a jury trial and see if you can make some of that stupidity work in your favor

2

u/theamathamhour 11h ago

I am not sure, as I keep reading conflicting things. apparently you can waive your right to jury trial, but in some cases and jurisdictions, you will still have a jury trial if prosecutor doesn't agree to bench trial.

4

u/Tossed_Away_1776 11h ago

I was jury foreman once for a DUI trial. The prosecution and defense both wanted me there because I myself had gotten a DUI years prior(I owned it during the initial questioning/interview). Guess they both wanted to see which way I'd lean maybe. Dude's eyes got wide as all hell when I said "Guilty, your Honor.".

5

u/SoggyOutfield 11h ago

I have this conversation all the time with people when they spout off about self defense and stand your ground laws and when it is and isn't legal to do this and that.

And the bottom line is, do you really want 12 fucking morons deciding the fate of possibly the rest of your life just because you THINK it is just? Fuck no.

You better look for any fucking excuse imaginable to not take that chance. Run the fuck away, do whatever it takes.

3

u/mikefjr1300 10h ago

My co-worker sat on a jury with someone who intentionally extended the process because they had nothing better to do. It was as simple as that.

6

u/Ill_Entrance91 11h ago

I did Jury duty once for a girl who had a route selling drugs. They had her texts and phone calls. Pretty much an open and shut case.

We go to deliberation and a couple people were in the i support weed smokers and cops are shady. They are trying to say the cops must have done something unethical or lie so we got to vote not guilty. 

I let them go on for awhile before I spoke up and said is there any evidence of any kind of police misconduct introduced in this case? Did her defense present any? 

They both said well no. 

So I said lets focus on the facts and not deliberate on hunches, feelings or mythical evidence not presented in this case.

About an hour later we all voted guilty. 

3

u/Petarthefish 11h ago

Trial by combat it is then

3

u/Throckmorton_Left 10h ago

If you're ever accused of a serious crime, one really stupid juror could save you. A bench trial is usually far more dangerous for a guilty defendant.

3

u/whackwarrens 10h ago

They are in literally every jury pool lol. Two most likely but one of them will be just smart enough to know that they are dumb and wouldn't double down.

2

u/Femmebird 12h ago

Same. I don’t trust my peers lol. 

2

u/MissionarySPE 12h ago

Well. Unless, of course, you did it lol. 

2

u/Immediate_Gain_9480 11h ago

My country uses a 3 judge panel instead of a jury and personally i would very much prefer that. But the quality of our judicery and its independence is very very good. I would definitly not trust every countries judicery in the same way.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/muppet_master_ 11h ago

How many juries have you served on? Most people never serve on one...

3

u/CriticalInside8272 10h ago

Six in superior court and one in federal court.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/matomatomat 11h ago

The standup comic Sheng Wang bit about being on jury duty in his most recent special ("Purple") is SPOT ON about this.

2

u/meldiane81 10h ago

It’s so crazy how that is possible that you’ve served many times and I’ve never been called once.

2

u/mykyrox 10h ago

Feeling is holding too much weight in these times we’re living in.

2

u/sneakacat 10h ago

After serving on one jury for a CPS case, I saw so clearly how the legal system is fucked front and back, that absolutely no one gets a truly just treatment, and I hope I'm never involved again. 

2

u/Steve_the_Samurai 9h ago

Think of how stupid the average person is. Now think 1/2 are dumber than that.

-Carlin

2

u/tmotytmoty 9h ago

this is a sign of the times. People are just getting stupidier Moreover, the stupidest among us are confident in their stupidity.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/Professional-Tailor2 9h ago

I believe something similar happened on the parkland shooting trial. I believe there was at least one juror that didn't feel good about sentencing someone to death. It was totally biased 

2

u/rubottom 8h ago

George Carlin said it best: "Imagine the average American, and realize half of them are dumber than that." (or something like that)

2

u/BitesTheDust55 8h ago

Once you have a good idea of just how dumb the average person is, your contempt for them tends to grow substantially. I don't believe all people should be allowed to vote, and trial by jury is obviously a massively flawed system for the same reason. Plenty of people out there simply cannot be trusted with that kind of power.

2

u/AKABeast18 8h ago

I always tell my kids & husband to never choose a jury if something were to happen to them.

The last jury I was on, I had to convince absolutely every other juror that the defendant did not have to testify to prove their innocence. The lack of him testifying also did not prove guilt. I had to call back a few times to clarify some things these people swore was said but wasn’t. It was crazy &, I don’t know how, but I got them all flipped. They really had the hardest time understanding “beyond a reasonable doubt” & it blew my mind.

It was also a stage in my life that I realized there were a lot of unintelligent people on this planet.

2

u/IndividualAd8320 7h ago

This is how we got Trump... twice.

2

u/steeple_fun 6h ago

I was on one with a college professor (PhD and everything) that kept saying, "But you KNOW he's guilty!"

He couldn't wrap his head around, "It's not about what we 'know', it's about what was proven" and the prosecuting attorney did a TERRIBLE job.

2

u/kc_cyclone 4h ago

Served on one for a trivial civil suit over a car accident. Made friemds with an older dude just shooting the shit after we were all selected, comes time to pick a foreman. No one wants to. Dudes just like "kc_cyclone will do it." Sure let's gets this rolling. 2 days of boring trial over a baby fender bender. Obvious we're not awarding any money. Initial vote 11 for no reward 1 abstaining. The dude abstaining starts to go on a soap box, 2 minutes inI I stopped him and just said we only need 9, we got 11 and told the bailiff to tell the judge we were ready.

2

u/pickled_daydream 4h ago

I had a guy in my jury pool flat out say, "im 19...im pretty stupid still. You don't want me. " He was dismissed amid the laughter.

→ More replies (96)