No AI until high school: NYC schools announce major classroom technology overhaul

[u/habichuelacondulce]

https://abc7ny.com/post/new-york-city-public-schools-banning-ai-use-middle-school-year/19778716/

[u/Otherwise-Anxiety815]

They need to treat AI use in schools the way they treated plagiarism when I was growing up. Stop messing around.

[u/Kryptyx → u/Otherwise-Anxiety815]

Way harder to stop now than it was then. Literally every device will have some form of it in the next few years.

[u/hannibellecter → u/Kryptyx]

easy - no devices in school during classes, problem sloved

[u/tweak06 → u/hannibellecter]

Seriously. I can't believe this isn't obvious already. Kids just put their phones into a basket at the start of class. In an emergency, they can grab their phone at the front of the room. Otherwise, they have to sit and learn like the rest of us did.

[u/weaver787 → u/tweak06]

I'm a teacher in NJ. Just started the school year with our 'No phones in school' ban. It's been amazing (so far). Our directive is that it's gotta go on their locker at the start of the day.

[u/Daft00 → u/weaver787]

Honest question: How do you deal with the parents that throw a shitfit over the kids not having their phones on them?

I've heard that's oftentimes the more difficult hurdle to overcome... Does the admin do a good job having your back and standing strong on it? Or do they not cause an uproar in your district?

[u/Ok-Control-3954 → u/Daft00]

In general, parents are the biggest road block to actually giving a child an education. They refuse to hold their child accountable for anything, including cell phone usage, so it forces the schools hand into banning the phones.

Then, they cry foul about the kids being “cut off”, like there isn’t still an adult in the room with a cell phone, as well as several other phones throughout the school. Not to mention the fact that public school went perfectly fine for a century without a single cell phone in sight

[u/The_BeardedClam → u/Ok-Control-3954]

Then there's my mom. I would get in trouble at school and she'd tell them to throw the book at me. Love you too mom.

[u/velociraptorfarmer → u/The_BeardedClam]

How it should be.

Kids need to fuck around and hit the find out stage hard when the consequences are lower. Otherwise they turn into adults who hit that stage and there's actual consequences for being an ass.

[u/ironicthesameplaceim → u/velociraptorfarmer]

“Mom the teacher was mean to me.” “Well what did you do?”

[u/Rocktopod → u/velociraptorfarmer]

Some people are also able to live out long lives being an ass the with no consequences.

[u/SheetPancakeBluBalls → u/The_BeardedClam]

All I'm saying is every person I've met that was cool as an adult had a parent that was a fucking hard ass.

[u/big_troublemaker → u/SheetPancakeBluBalls]

The concept of childhood with boundaries and challenges building resilience and integrity has been around for thousands of years. Nothing new here. Also, hard ass does not mean asshole parents.

[u/PraiseBeToScience → u/SheetPancakeBluBalls]

I know a lot of fucked up adults who had hard-ass parents. Significant mental health issues.

[u/Taminella_Grinderfal → u/Ok-Control-3954]

I’m 50, it’s crazy to think that the people having kids now, also grew up with phones & social media 24/7. I’m not much given to nostalgia, but it makes me sad to realize they’ll never understand how nice it was not being tethered to a phone.

[u/eyebrows360 → u/Taminella_Grinderfal]

I try to think back to my 1980s childhood screen-less house and I wonder what the actual fuck I used to do all day.

[u/acelana → u/eyebrows360]

Did you not have a tv? Books? Video games? Play outside? I’m a 90s kid but I remember all of those. I guess in a way Pokemon on the black and white (really green and dark green) Gameboy was the og iPad kid but at least that had no microtransactions

[u/johnnycoxxx → u/Ok-Control-3954]

It pisses me off so much. My parents told me to go to the bus or get a ride from the neighbor. They trusted I went. If they needed me for any reason they called the office and the office called me. I can think of maybe 4-5 instances where my parents needed to contact me. These parents grew up the same as I did. They’re being absolutely ridiculous. You need them? Call the office.

[u/Jlong4242 → u/Ok-Control-3954]

I didn't have a phone until late high school. My parents could call the office for all of the 0 times they needed to get ahold of me while I was at school

[u/Doctah_Whoopass → u/Daft00]

I dont understand how the school admin doesnt just ignore parents on this. Lets them yap, theyre all dumb as rocks anyway.

[u/Outlulz → u/Doctah_Whoopass]

Because the parents go after the elected official that is in charge of the schools.

[u/qtx → u/Outlulz]

elected official that is in charge of the schools

That is the real issue. An issue with a lot of things in the US actually.

Just because you have elections for every single office job does not mean the best person for the job gets it.

It's the opposite, the people that really want the job and will do anything to get elected are usually the worst people for the position.

[u/Space_Pirate_Roberts → u/qtx]

In most parts of the U.S., judges, chief of police/county sheriff, and/or district attorney are elected offices. And people wonder why we have a broken justice system.

[u/weaver787 → u/Daft00]

Easy. It's a state law. Not up to me.. they can bitch and complain all they want.

All of the parents that are complaining are from an era where none of us really had cell phones anyway. They Should understand

[u/HumorAccomplished611 → u/Daft00]

Just require them to call the school? or maybe make it be a flip or brick phone with no smart features?

[u/Daft00 → u/HumorAccomplished611]

I get that, I'm absolutely for this initiative and what that commenter was saying about "no phones in school".

What I'm asking about is the inevitable uproar from the parents. I've heard of SOOOO many good ideas getting shut down simply because the parents (not the students, mind you) can't behave.

[u/dsmwookie → u/Daft00]

You confiscate the property and require parents to pick it up. After so many offenses law enforcement or the board becomes involved. Requiring parental pick up begins some accountability.

[u/RpiesSPIES → u/tweak06]

Could use those envelopes they pass out at theaters so ppl could still have their phones on them but can't access until opened.

[u/fersure4 → u/RpiesSPIES]

Im pretty sure some schools in NY have started using these

[u/KickBallFever → u/fersure4]

I work at a pubic school campus in NYC that tried using these. They gave up years ago because the pouches are easily broken open. The whole thing was a bust. Last year they started a no phone policy here. Phones are collected from students in the morning and given back at the end of the day. This has actually been working.

[u/illegalcupcakes16 → u/tweak06]

I legitimately don't understand why we as a society have moved away from my middle school's phone policy. Phones allowed before and after school, at lunch, and in class at teacher's discretion. Have it out outside of that, it gets confiscated. First offense student can pick it up end of day, second offense a parent/guardian needs to pick it up, third offense is lunch detention. Students have their phones on them and accessible in case of an emergency or for genuine instructional purposes, but if a student is being disruptive, that phone is gone for the day without punishing the kid who has been given permission to listen to their own music on their headphones after finishing all their work. It baffles me that everything these days seems to be either "phones should be 100% banned" or "phones should be 100% allowed" when that middle ground worked phenomenally in 2012.

[u/Turbulent_Gazelle530 → u/illegalcupcakes16]

teachers would love it.

what really happened is that school administrators moved away from any sort of meaningful discipline.

that means that you either have to a) take away a kids phone day after day with no opportunity to escalate or b) eat shit when a kid tells you to "fuck off, you're not taking my phone" and nothing is done about it.

the majority of teachers looked at the situation and said "ok, phones it is, I guess"

[u/IslandStorytime → u/illegalcupcakes16]

it really doesn't seem hard. Phones in schools have been banned where I live for a while. I set up a do-not-disturb schedule on my kid's phone so that it only rings during school hours if they get a call from me or their mom, which will only happen in an emergency because we're not dumb, and they leave it in their backpack. They've never had a single complaint. They can't get in trouble for having it if they never use it, look at it, or acknowledge its existence, and it is helping them to learn some control over their screen use, which I think is great.

[u/argnsoccer → u/illegalcupcakes16]

Yeah, my middle school policy was we were allowed phones (could answer a call in the 5 mins between classes or lunch), but if they were out during class, they were confiscated for the full day. I actually got my phone confiscated for a whole weekend because my parents agreed with the principal that they should keep it for the weekend..... Got really good at texting T9 without having to take hand out of pocket, but that's much less likely for kids now with the size of phones vs fliphone

[u/phoenixmatrix → u/tweak06]

The issue is it really needs state/principal support, because parents are fighting these policies tooth and nails, and teachers the have the tools to fight back.

In schools where phones aren't allowed, the parents are often the ones coaching the kids on how to get around the rules.

[u/Dr-McLuvin → u/hannibellecter]

And all the tests have to be proctored with strict no device policies.

[u/20_mile → u/Dr-McLuvin]

"I cheated by reading the book, and understanding the concepts."

[u/Lavanger → u/20_mile]

This plan is foolproof

First of all we start going to school, we go in every day, 7am to 3pm, Monday to Friday, do as they say, do the work, gain their trust until we get them in the palm of our hand.

"So how we pass the test?"

That is the beauty of it; They're gonna give us an A+, They're not even gonna know they're getting robbed, and then 12 years later, we walk out the front door like nothing even happened.

[u/HoodieTheCat78 → u/hannibellecter]

And that has already been the rule in NYC since last year. The phones go into sealed pouches when students enter the building.

[u/IRefuseToGiveAName → u/HoodieTheCat78]

My kids are way too young to be dealing with this, but do they not simply get around this by having a dummy phone or finding a way to unlock whatever pouch they've been given?

I remember being a teenager. They're clever. Very clever. I remember teaching kids how to live boot Ubuntu on our school laptops to get around content blockers when I was a kid. Which was relatively niche information at the time. It hadn't even had the feature for all that long.

[u/HoodieTheCat78 → u/IRefuseToGiveAName]

I work in an NYC public high school. From what I can see, some kids have a second phone, but because it’s not allowed, there are few who go to the trouble. I’ve also heard from more than one student that they really enjoy not having phones in school.

[u/IRefuseToGiveAName → u/HoodieTheCat78]

Christ. Bless you for that. An NYC public high school broke one of the most patient, kind people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. I think he's a bartender/substitute back in our college town now.

And yeah that checks out. Constantly being fed slop from The Algorithm, even when you ostensibly have your friends as mutuals must be fucking exhausting. I'm glad they're getting a chance to be kids.

[u/curtcolt95 → u/IRefuseToGiveAName]

why would you even have laptops? When I was in high school any phone that was seen by a teacher even on break would be confiscated and the only computers were in a lab strictly monitored by a teacher at all times

[u/thegreenleaves802 → u/hannibellecter]

What, do you want the literacy rates to go back up or something?

[u/Turbulent_Gazelle530 → u/hannibellecter]

sloved

subtle yet clever way of proving to us that you aren't an AI bot

[u/tiekanashiro → u/hannibellecter]

Brazil banned phones in schools and apparently kids are doing way better from teachers and students perspectives

[u/very-polite-frog → u/Kryptyx]

Yesterday my Google Maps app replaced the "Home" button spot with "Ask Maps™" and I hate it

[u/IRefuseToGiveAName → u/very-polite-frog]

Yeah they did that shit with me too. Really, really fucking bad dark pattern. Same with Amazon putting their stupid fucking AI button where the shortcuts/account menu button used to be.

It's fucking pathetic how desperate they are to get people to use a feature nobody fucking asked for or wants.

[u/ZombyPuppy → u/IRefuseToGiveAName]

And the q and a. Now it's just an ai summary of questions instead of being able to see all the questions and answers listed at once.

[u/Otherwise-Anxiety815 → u/Kryptyx]

In some ways harder and in some ways just as hard as combating plagiarism was. But it being hard just means you should be putting my effort and resources into the ways to combat it. Literally kids’ literacy, intellect, and readiness for this shitty world that’s unfolding before us, depends on it.

[u/Wooshington → u/Otherwise-Anxiety815]

To be fair, they try to and in most schools the consequences of using AI are just as severe as plagiarism. The issue is that it’s way harder to catch and prove a student is using AI compared to plagiarism. And AI use is so much more common than plagiarism ever was because students know they can get away with it, which only makes it harder to enforce.

[u/weaver787 → u/Wooshington]

Defense against AI needs to be proactive, not reactive. In class writings, locked down Chromebook screens, ect.

Google Doc 'revision history' is also a slight defense but there are definitely kids who will just typer whatever they get from AI into their google doc so it looks natural

[u/Cyphr → u/weaver787]

I feel like the simplest and only defense is paper and pencil only in the classroom.

If you use it as a learning aid during homework, that's probably fine, but if you can't work without it, then it'll show on pop quizzes and exams, and a teacher can be proactive and make sure you understand the material.

[u/DroidOnPC → u/Cyphr]

The biggest issue is homework.

In class, a teacher shows a new math formula, then hands out a homework assignment where you do like 20 questions using the new formula. That's how you learn. But you can go home and just have AI do it. This is what most kids will do, because sitting there for an hour doing homework sucks.

Sure, the kids will fail on the tests and quizzes, but schools don't want that because like 90% of the class is gonna end up failing and that looks bad.

I think we reached a point where its up to the parents to make sure their kids are learning. But we all know most parents are not gonna spend hours a day watching their kid do homework to make sure they are actually learning.

I don't think teachers can spend 1 on 1 time with like 90% of their students.

[u/ImpressionDepression → u/DroidOnPC]

Simpler solution is not having homework. I have a friend who is a teacher and he does not assign it. it's just busywork and with classroom sizes as they are it's an incredible amount of work.

In class assignments, finish what you can't at home (not assigned) work just as well and you can actually make sure they do it.

Homework also just widens the advantage gap between those who have the home life conducive to doing it (i.e. don't have to work jobs, support family after school).

[u/CMMiller89 → u/weaver787]

We honestly just need to get rid of the Chromebooks.

Teacher here: they add nothing to education other than bloated contracts schools get hooked on. They're entirely unnecessary. I teacher graphic design to kids who haven't touched desktops before in their lives and I get them up and running in less than a week. There isn't some kind of built up knowledge you need that makes kids using computers necessary. We all literally learned how to use technology without it fucking up our most formative years. It doesn't inoculate them to dangers on the internet, if anything it primes them to assume the invasion of technology into our lives is the baseline normal.

[u/bwoah07_gp2 → u/CMMiller89]

Here in Canada, at least in the city I'm from, kids don't have Chromebooks. Assignments are done pen and paper, or they use laptops/computers booked for the hour during class, or work from home.

[u/SolarBum → u/Wooshington]

Don't allow devices in class, and give frequent tests and quizzes in class, without devices.

I remember having to write 'in-class' essays all the time, long before AI, or smart phones. If you have a kid whose scores precipitously drop when doing work at home vs. in class, or whose writing ability substantially "differs" when writing at home vs. in-class essays, then it's pretty obvious who's cheating.

[u/Meeesh- → u/SolarBum]

The problem has to do with projects. Tests and exams are solvable, but projects are a huge part of education where you can spend more time on something.

When it comes to writing or working on a project, it’s not the result that’s the most valuable thing, but the process of getting to the result. If you’re doing a research paper, the resulting paper might be what you’re graded on, but the process of doing the research and writing the paper is what is most valuable to your learning.

The same thing if you’re building something for a project. Most likely no one will care about what you built, but the journey of encountering problems and working to fix them is the value.

I use AI every day for work. It’s incredibly helpful and I think it will be valuable for many people in their jobs. But also people need the ability to think for themselves and exams do not do a good job of representing how you solve bigger problems.

[u/NaniFarRoad → u/Wooshington]

Ask the student to explain what their work is about. Will catch pretty much all the AI plagiarists.

[u/Substantial_Life4773 → u/NaniFarRoad]

This. We’re already seeing a shift back to blue book essay tests and we’re gonna see a lot more oral exams haha

[u/Booty_Bumping → u/Otherwise-Anxiety815]

To be clear, this policy is more about whether teachers can assign students to use AI as a research tool, and whether the curriculum can include AI instructional tools. Which has become a major problem, because education companies have been trying to sell slop courses that involve students sitting in front of a screen all day long, not really learning anything, and having LLMs grade their work. And unscreened AI output just isn't educationally useful since it is so inaccurate. Teachers are being left without any guidance while for-profit companies constantly push unproven curriculum making use of AI tools as if it has already been scientifically validated by education research.

This would also ban, for example, a "hands-on AI literacy" course that intends to let students use AI to teach how it can get things wrong or how to spot AI using AI. (I would actually agree with such a ban, I don't think such a course makes sense until high school because these chatbots are unpredictable and are rather likely to spew something inappropriate or downright scary no matter how tightly you control the classroom. For younger kids it can't really be hands-on, demonstrating specific pre-screened examples would be much safer.)

The case of "student uses AI to write an assignment and passes it off as their own work without disclosing it" that most people think about when they hear about AI in education is already considered plagiarism in the vast majority of situations. Same as using a calculator in the non-calculator section of a quiz.

[u/Photog1981 → u/Otherwise-Anxiety815]

I think the better analogy is comparing AI to using a calculator. AI is here, it's not going anywhere, it's going to be important for kids to have the skills to think and do these things for themselves before they start using the shortcut of AI,

[u/Salt_End_4275]

In the 1980s and 90s, we learned about computers and all of the Windows applications in school. We learned how to type, how to use search engines, and also how to search a library. My children learned NONE of this in school, within the past 10 years. No document processing. No typing. They have had to learn by doing, but you still have many kids typing around 10 words per minute. My kids have used tablets and laptops, sure, but they weren't taught how to use them, how they work, how to take care of them, etc. While I'm happy to have done that teaching myself, it's a sad state of affairs that schools don't teach those basic skills and knowledge anymore, when it is more relevant than ever.

[u/bwoah07_gp2 → u/Salt_End_4275]

Being taught Word and Excel should be mandatory 😁

[u/Salt_End_4275 → u/bwoah07_gp2]

That was my exact sentiment. If nothing else, I told my oldest that these are baseline applications that any office job will require. Not to mention how helpful they can be in everyday life.

[u/VirginiaMcCaskey → u/bwoah07_gp2]

Fuck that, TeX and SQL. /s

[u/Stringtone → u/VirginiaMcCaskey]

The children will do their math homework in R and they will like it, dammit

[u/zshikai → u/Stringtone]

MATLAB not R

[u/fumei_tokumei → u/VirginiaMcCaskey]

If you aren't running your own home brewed text renderer and spreadsheet, do you even basic computer literacy? /s

[u/Goose_Wingz → u/bwoah07_gp2]

Considering 90% of well paying corporate jobs require these on a daily basis, I agree.

[u/spez_might_fuck_dogs → u/bwoah07_gp2]

Right? I learned Excel in school in the '90s. Not in-depth but enough to understand the basics and to know that there was so much more possible.

[u/Ck_shock → u/Salt_End_4275]

Yeah its crazy that now the generation with the most access to computers growing up. knows almost nothing about how to actually use them.

[u/Salt_End_4275 → u/Ck_shock]

My youngest son is incredibly deft at using his tablet, but he wouldn't know anything about how a computer works if I didn't teach him. I asked my oldest if they learned anything in school about how computers work, typing, work processing, etc. and he said they didn't.

[u/jardex22 → u/Salt_End_4275]

I think keyboarding is being phased out, just like how cursive writing was on its way out while I was in school. Schools don't want to dedicate that much time to having kids sit down and play Mavis Beacon in the computer lab (assuming there even is still a computer lab to use).

[u/abjectdoubt → u/jardex22]

Yeah, but at least cursive has minimal practical application. Typing is still a necessary skill in most workplaces.

[u/Dushenka → u/jardex22]

Why is keyboarding being phased out? How do people actually type instead? On a touchscreen, at a snails pace? None at all? Watching people needing over a minute to write a single paragraph on their phone is infuriating.

[u/mysecondaccountanon → u/Salt_End_4275]

I’m a more recent grad, I had both tech classes and a dedicated typing class at school. I’m not even sure why, considering the school that I went to that had them was incredibly underfunded, but we did. I even got to learn basic HTML, CSS, C#, and Python. And I’m actually pretty grateful for them, as my typing skills are much higher than a lot of my peers. In addition to that, I also loathe that I am the “tech person” everyone brings every tech problem to, but it’s a small price to pay for actually being able to understand and navigate computers to a certain extent.

[u/Salt_End_4275 → u/mysecondaccountanon]

The crazy thing is that as you learn more, the more you will realize how much more you don't know. And that will only continue to be the case the more that we rely on AI or older/existing code/systems and things like text-to-speech.

[u/raven_of_azarath → u/Salt_End_4275]

This is why, up until this school year, I was very tech heavy with my lessons. Everything we did doubled as “here’s how you use the tech.” The downside was rampant cheating and AI usage (which meant they weren’t learning my content nor how to use the tech appropriately), so I unfortunately am almost entirely paper this year.

[u/bobsmeds → u/Salt_End_4275]

Tech in schools is a distraction now. One of the reasons my 5 yr old loves reading is because he hasn't touched his iPad since school ended months ago

[u/PattyIceNY → u/Salt_End_4275]

It's really embarrassing. I'm a 6th grade teacher, and it's baffling how terrible my a students are at typing.

We use to do a program for a few weeks in class once a week. But the problem is we always sell out to a low bidder, so the program was repetitive and boring, so kids did not do well.

[u/Salt_End_4275 → u/PattyIceNY]

I had to force my kids to learn on a typing website, and my oldest said he didn't see the point since none of his friends were doing that. Tried to tell him that being able to type correctly and quickly is going to be important when he has to write something longer than 2 sentences...

[u/InternationalMood337]

Not enough. Ditch the computers in schools too.

Bring back computer class where kids learn ABOUT computers. Ditch computers in regular classrooms.

These are tools. They're not substitutes for deep, critical thinking and slower writing with pen and paper.

[u/True_Window_9389 → u/InternationalMood337]

Give kids Windows XP computers and tell them how to edit the registry to install cracked Adobe apps, and give it wacky UI skins. That’ll teach them how to use a computer.

[u/BornAgainWitch → u/True_Window_9389]

Alright kids. Today we're compiling the Linux kernel from scratch. The first step is to edit the config in vim.

[u/MarkIsARedditAddict → u/BornAgainWitch]

Today kids we're installing Arch Linux, and for the next couple weeks we're going to be ricing our setups until they're 100% unusable. Then we'll be installing Ubuntu

[u/compelx → u/MarkIsARedditAddict]

Answer: and then u can run update-ca-certificates ❌

WRONG. It’s update-ca-trust on arch. Very disappointed. Speak to me after class

[u/paintballboi07 → u/MarkIsARedditAddict]

You'll find your assigned fedora beneath your seat. Don't forget, you now "use Arch btw", and that's something that everyone wants to know!

[u/NYIsles55 → u/MarkIsARedditAddict]

The test may have a bonus and that bonus may be about configuring Nix.

[u/Super-Revolution-433 → u/MarkIsARedditAddict]

Why would you subject those poor children to GNOME like that? Child abuse is not a joke

[u/oakinmypants → u/BornAgainWitch]

But how will they exit Vim?

[u/BornAgainWitch → u/oakinmypants]

Get to that in college

[u/krysztov → u/oakinmypants]

That's the neat part, you don't!

[u/squizzi → u/BornAgainWitch]

I know you're sort of joking but I attribute my career as a Software Engineer to my high school networking class. Our teacher inspired us to try different Linux distros, we had racks with Cisco switches and routers on them etc. This wasn't a well funded school or anything either. We also had a Starcraft LAN party at one point when the teacher was out because of course we did.

I think there's some real value in offering a lot of that stuff, let kids mess around with different OS's and learn to code, etc.

AI is changing this industry rapidly but there's still value in learning the practical skills of messing around in a terminal instead of asking Claude every time.

[u/Gamer_Grease → u/squizzi]

All we got from giving kids Chromebooks was a lot of very loyal, very dumb Google ecosystem users.

[u/ben-hur-hur → u/BornAgainWitch]

Oh God I still remember the pain of installing Gentoo. FreeBSD too.

[u/Nemphiz → u/ben-hur-hur]

Gentoo was so complicated that by the time you were done you'd know pretty much anything about the OS lol

[u/Feeling_Inside_1020 → u/True_Window_9389]

Oh the good days, back when you could download limewire to download limewire pro to download cracked PS4.0.

Trading that on a CD is how I got a beta google gmail invite in ironically high school lol.

[u/ponycorn_pet → u/[deleted]]

My gmail address is six letters long lol

[u/Nchi → u/ponycorn_pet]

Are these rare now? I have 2 lol

[u/mofugginrob → u/Nchi]

This chain of people ending their posts with lol is so millennial lol.

[u/Nemphiz → u/mofugginrob]

lol I can't stop it lol

[u/Daft00 → u/Feeling_Inside_1020]

Honestly just give these kids myspace and they'll figure the rest out lol

[u/RuniKiuru → u/True_Window_9389]

nah, go further. windows 98.

or go full linux.

[u/Camburgerhelpur → u/RuniKiuru]

Better yet, no GUIs allowed. CLI only

[u/Smith6612 → u/Camburgerhelpur]

That's how all schools teach Linux over here! They have you install OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, or something else without the GUI. 

[u/I_upvote_downvotes → u/Smith6612]

In College one of my courses gave you bonus points for installing and using Arch for the remainder of the projects. GUI could be allowed but if you're running four VM's on a laptop it wasn't going to work out for you.

[u/TikiTDO → u/RuniKiuru]

Why not punch cards? Or slide rules?

[u/RuniKiuru → u/TikiTDO]

how about a whole computer history course where kids can get hands on experience with the all the tech along the timeline?

I’d sign up for that as an adult tbh

[u/TikiTDO → u/RuniKiuru]

Honestly, I really appreciated those courses back in university. It really helped put things into focus, though I probably wouldn't force kids into that until like, last few years of HS.

[u/viziroth → u/TikiTDO]

I appreciate the hyperbole, but CLI Linux infrastructure is still a backbone of modern systems, but I doubt there's more than 10 places running punch card programs that aren't hobbyists or just some astonishing level of commitment to backwards compatibility.

[u/Tooch10 → u/RuniKiuru]

If you misbehave it's Windows 8 for you

[u/crazycatlady331 → u/InternationalMood337]

Go back to the computer lab.

[u/SoulTrack → u/crazycatlady331]

in general, we need to go back to the time where technology is something we go to and not something we bring with us

[u/work_m_19 → u/SoulTrack]

Realtalk, all this technology that was made for our lives but haven't made our lives better gives me a better appreciation for the Amish's philosophy.

Technology should be used to make our lives better and share human emotions and experiences, and as soon as it goes further where we now have a reliance on it, it should be given up.

[u/Shad0w5991 → u/work_m_19]

Humanity has relied on so much different technology for centuries that I don't think you understand how shitty life is without them. Even Amish people still rely on technology sometimes.

[u/work_m_19 → u/Shad0w5991]

That was my point?

I was saying that Amish are very intentional of letting technology into their lives, than adopting the "latest and most recent fad".

The technology around Amish is based on the community agreement, there's no central tenant of "no technology". I don't think any Amish community would ban washing machines, for example, other than the most hardcore.

[u/Takaa → u/InternationalMood337]

This was back in the late 90s, and while I was already a bit of a computer nerd with trying to figure things out before this and already knew some basics, I still have a core memory of my 6th grade computer teacher teaching us HTML using the one tool we had: plain-old Notepad. Everyone thought it was really cool making our own little 'websites' and putting whatever on there that we wanted. I still remember finding some JavaScript online so I could make snowflakes fall all over the page.

I later took courses like programming in high school, and just about every other computer class I could, as well as 'independent studies' where I basically had a class every semester where I fixed the computers of all of the teachers in the school district under the supervision of the IT administrator. I've been a software engineer for over 20 years now, so I guess this exposure to computer courses worked.

[u/Ex_Hedgehog → u/InternationalMood337]

Grown adults are becoming unhealthily attached to AI chatbots.
I don't think highschool kids should use them either

[u/ImBackAndImAngry → u/Ex_Hedgehog]

I’ve got a nephew in 8th grade and that kid talks about GPT like it’s his best friend.

Kid doesn’t make anything anymore. He just asks gpt for slop and then tries to show everyone “what I made” and gets a bunch of praise for it like he’s some boy genius or something. It’s a gorilla in a Hawaiian shirt selling fried chicken. It’s slop.

His grandfather uses GPT often. Even nicknamed it “Atlas” so now he just says “Atlas” in conversations with others as if he’s talking about a buddy he was working with.

It’s getting bleak out there

[u/BioshockEnthusiast → u/[deleted]]

Kinda telling that this behavior is so socially unacceptable that people implicitly feel the need to cover it up with nicknames and chicanery.

[u/KDLGates → u/BioshockEnthusiast]

I don't know the psychology of this, but I think of in a lot of cases it's a better substitute for self talk (which can be healthy), essentially a follow-up on the imaginary friend instinct. Personally I don't really anthropormorphize but I don't think it's wrong to do so in limited amounts. This area is already grey with the current level of chatbot intelligence, they are getting to be legitimate parasocial outlets.

[u/shazarakk → u/ImBackAndImAngry]

It seems to be everywhere. In just about every form of art. I listen to a shitload of audiobooks, be it read aloud by people, or by basic tts, basically from everywhere, published works, web novels, fan fiction.

It has infected even genuinely good writers in every space. The worst part is that it's so incredibly clear when something is written by AI. One web novel I was listening to went from the chap's usual style to ai between fucking chapters.

And it wasn't just a sentence here or there, I get that, it can be hard to write some sentences to satisfaction, sometimes, but it's genuinely impressive the level of nonsensical bullshit that isn't even proofread by some people.

"Somewhere between a heartbeat and a warning" when describing how a city moved, full of friendly faces, traffic descriptions, etc. That line just entirely took me out of it.

[u/Prettydaisydog → u/shazarakk]

this is me. i'm in school and i fucking fight the urge everyday. i hate it. i have a very particular writing style, i like it, profs used to love it, i don't use it anymore.

it's so fucked.

[u/IRefuseToGiveAName → u/shazarakk]

I was looking for system design podcasts a few months ago and I shit you not 80% of them were just Designing Data Intensive Applications shoved into some ai slop generator. They weren't even all correct. Like calling for the wrong date structure or database type for a given application.

And it sounds so fucking confident. If I didn't already kinda know what I was talking about I 100% would have believed it. Shit it even took the ai voices repeating the mistake 3-4 times before I really caught it beyond, "that doesn't sound right"

[u/VictorReal_Monster → u/ImBackAndImAngry]

It’s a gorilla in a Hawaiian shirt selling fried chicken. It’s slop.

Ummm sound much more whistley than just slop... you need to talk to your nephew.

[u/tooclosetocall82 → u/InternationalMood337]

Too much curriculum is only available online now. My daughter’s school didn’t give out their laptops for the first two weeks and teachers were scrambling to figure out how to teach them. We need to go back to textbooks but I’m not sure I see that happening.

[u/tooclosetocall82 → u/tooclosetocall82]

There’s also the more insidious aspect that online curriculums allow the administration to see how and if they are being used limiting teacher’s freedom.

[u/MarshyHope → u/tooclosetocall82]

And they all fucking suck. It's a way to extract more money out of public school funds because they're all subscription based per child per year.

[u/MommyLovesPot8toes → u/tooclosetocall82]

It's already happening in certain school districts. It's not THAT hard of a switch.

[u/tooclosetocall82 → u/MommyLovesPot8toes]

See my other reply as to the other reason. I work in edtech and have seen time and time again how analytics for admins are prioritized over the teacher and student.

[u/dcdem1163 → u/InternationalMood337]

And absolutely no phones in any class or during school hours.

[u/Immediate-Cress-206 → u/dcdem1163]

Until mommy bigbucks complains that it's not fair that Timmy gets to have his phone in class, but her kid doesn't. (Timmy has a continuous glucose monitor for diabetes)

[u/jjxanadu → u/dcdem1163]

This is already the case in New York.

[u/OttawaTGirl → u/InternationalMood337]

It's painful. My ex teaches HS and has taken Tech in the Classroom. She hates AI, but at the same time tech can be amazingly productive.

Example: she is teaching history. She is talking about ancient rome, and specifics about an emperor. She will point at a student with a phone and say "Jimmy, look up how Nero died." and she will continue. Jimmy looks it up on a reputable source, read it, and then read it to the class. Its a form of on the spot research and presentation. Often working well for easily distracted students.

But with AI it takes out a critical aspect of research and just vomits up whatever. Then it also throws the tech in the classroom out the window because the whole AI writing the essay thing has destroyed the meaning of leveraging tech to be an assistant, to the student being the assistant of delivering AI to the teacher.

Tech can be profoundly powerful in the classroom when used as a tool. AI not so much because the student becomes the tool.

She hates it now and doesn't see a way out of it without abolishing AI from kids devices alltogether. We are stuck. Its become a binary situation.

[u/Quick_Philosophy1426 → u/InternationalMood337]

Kids are coming out of school with no idea how to use computers because adults simply assumed that the new generation was born with some kind of inherent ability to use them. No man, we were taught how to use them. Chromebooks should never have been allowed in schools.

[u/leaky_wand → u/Quick_Philosophy1426]

Chromebooks are a joke. I see kids use them for educational purposes maybe twice a semester. The rest of the time they’re watching scratch animations or playing crappy JavaScript games on whatever site hasn’t been blocked by the IT filters yet. No educational value whatsoever. Worst of all they use them during recess or lunch when they’re supposed to be playing outside.

[u/wtnevi01 → u/InternationalMood337]

As a 4th grade teacher I have gone back to almost completely paper and pencil. Obviously can’t do it for everything with district mandates on certain things but I’m doing my best. So far it’s going well

[u/Photog1981]

At orientation for my child's school, the principal pointed out that they're limiting AI use until senior year. A couple parents were upset, compared AI to using a calculator. Theire point is it's a tool that their kids are going to encounter in their lives, they should know how to use it.

The principal handled it well saying they agreed but calculators aren't introduced until kids have learned the fundamentals of math, they get them when the math becomes more complex. AI will be treated the same way, they will teach the kids how to read and analyze, do the math, write the paper, create the presentation, etc., etc., before saying "ok, now use AI to get some of that base work out of the way so you can refine it yourselves."

I thought it was an excellent point.

[u/Chucky_In_The_Attic]

Even then I wouldn't promote any use of it.

People are already too reliant on what society calls "A.I."

[u/FuggyGlasses → u/Chucky_In_The_Attic]

True, and a resent study about "A.I" usage for med students says this.

However, early and uncritical reliance on AI during formative training may give rise to a distinct and under-recognized risk: never-skilling. Never-skilling occurs when learners substitute AI-generated outputs for the cognitive effort required to develop foundational clinical reasoning skills.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6152526

[u/cupkaxx → u/FuggyGlasses]

can't wait to get doctors in the future who failed the skilled checks

[u/GammaFan → u/FuggyGlasses]

Yeah, people use gen ai to “decrease cognitive load” which is really just sales speak for “have the ai think for them” which is fucked when you think about it for more than a few seconds.

[u/BlindWillieJohnson → u/Chucky_In_The_Attic]

Still good to see them starting somewhere. Homework isn’t some waste of time. Repetition is how we learn things if you skip that process and ask the big machine everything, you never actually learn or learn how to

[u/Blopslopper → u/BlindWillieJohnson]

Homework has been considered a waste of time long before AI.

[u/HakuohoFan]

Lol, yeah, just give them access once they're in high school because all high schoolers are know for their impulse control.

[u/AgentK-BB → u/HakuohoFan]

They need to learn impulse control while they're in high school, before they become adults when the consequences are bigger if they lose control.

[u/falcrist2 → u/HakuohoFan]

Treat it like calculators.

Yes, you get to use calculators... sometimes... and only after you've proven you can do the work without them.

Same thing with LLMs. Yea you can use them, but you're also going to have to show your work, and we're going to have hand-written, in-class tests.

[u/taedrin → u/falcrist2]

I was always just told "you won't need a calculator for this test".

[u/Ifriendzonecats → u/HakuohoFan]

As opposed to when? Starting in college with just the ones who go to college?

[u/Galahad_the_Ranger]

Common Mandani W

[u/SH4D0WSTAR → u/Galahad_the_Ranger]

I really admire what I have seen of his leadership style; he thinks, observes, consults, studies, and then takes wise action.

[u/OldYellersLastHandy]

Mamdani for Secretary of Education.

[u/Expert-Upstairs-4502]

Im not sure if kids these days are going to end up insanely educated or dumber than the dark ages

[u/ARandomWalkInSpace → u/Expert-Upstairs-4502]

Early evidence strongly suggests the second one.

[u/disisathrowaway → u/Expert-Upstairs-4502]

Dumber than dogshit and half as useful. I guarantee it.

[u/Meowie__Gamer]

why is it allowed in high school though

[u/gringrant → u/Meowie__Gamer]

I mean they're going to have to live with this technology for the rest of their lives, they'll need to learn when it is and isn't appropriate, and the only way to do that is to let them use it in moderation.

I imagine it'll be up to the teachers to decide when and how their students can use it, assuming this can be enforced at all.

[u/GiveMeOneGoodReason → u/Meowie__Gamer]

Honestly I would expect them to be educated on it in some fashion in high school, since they'll inevitably encounter it in their personal life or work life following graduation.

[u/squish042 → u/GiveMeOneGoodReason]

Then create a technology class that teaches AI principles. Learn what’s behind the machine first.

[u/GiveMeOneGoodReason → u/squish042]

That would be my expectation? A full, blanket ban on AI usage in high schools would prohibit that. I don't expect NYC high schools to say "Welcome to 9th grade, go ahead and write your essays with ChatGPT"

[u/Mothanius → u/Meowie__Gamer]

AI is still a tool that the kids will need to learn how to use to operate in the modern day/future. Hate them or love them, LLMs are here to stay even if every single corpo business went under today. LLMs are also great assistance in research when used properly.

High School is a good age to start using it. However, I think that while in Middle School and learning things like siting sources and researching, they should start to be slowly introduced to AI as an assistant rather than the solution. Not possible yet though. I think to do this, we need to train a new model that doesn't give you the answer, but will try to guide you to the answer. And I'm hesitant on that idea anyways because of the cost (water and electicity) in training AI models. But I don't see why a low level, local LLM on the school laptop with limited internet searching abilities wouldn't be a bad option. They don't need a Ferrari, just a Ford Pinto.

[u/nihhh123]

Didn't realize there were so many people who think "using A.I." is a skill you have to learn lmao.

The "skill" is simply your ability to provide oversight, which only comes from having pre-existing knowledge in what you're using it for in the first place.

And relying heavily on AI while you're learning something negatively affects your learning outcomes by a LOT.

[u/Mothanius → u/nihhh123]

The most "skillful" people who use AI are people who use it as a supplement. They don't need it, but it helps them do what they know how to do faster. Whether accomplishing a task, researching, or otherwise. That's all it really does.

Then EVEN THEN, we notice our skills can quickly slip away. Much like how a middle manager can lose touch of what the work is like on the ground floor. Same thing, except you are the guy on the ground floor and you should know what's going on. But since the AI is doing all the ground floor work, you find yourself in this weird middle middle managing position where your worker is an AI agent.

AI can help you learn, if used correctly. I had our work AI quiz me on some new feature we were going to release. I've had it break down concepts that I couldn't quite grasp until I could. The benefit of having the AI teach you is the ability to question it. But you will still need to check and verify the sources that it uses. Especially if it's crawling the open internet for information. Once again, as a supplemental helper.

[u/indoninjah → u/Mothanius]

I think you're dead on but the main risk is making sure that people are still skilled at all.

I worked as a software engineer for 10 years before AI took off. I know how to turn a product requirement into a list of a features, design safe ways to implement those features, and implement them. With AI coding tools, I can work 5-10 times faster.

My main concern is around the entry level engineers who are now instructed to do everything with Claude Code. Are they learning anything at all about what they're actually doing? And that's kind of the issue at play here where we're talking about schools. It's kind of hard to imagine a student being "assisted" by AI without 100% relying on it, because they don't have any skills yet.

[u/Mothanius → u/indoninjah]

At this point, we're just circle jerking, because your 100% on that too. It's been a major concern in the tech world that A) There is no room for Juniors and B) Juniors we do get, are trained poorly, because of AI.

They get hired on and are expected to start producing way earlier, and at a way higher pace than they used to. The on boarding process for a developer used to take figurative ages. There is so many ins and outs and BS that they have to pick up on before they can be considered competent. And that's not even a fault of any programming skills they may lack or have, it's just a complex field. Now AI knows those ins and outs for them and handles that part. There is never time or room for them to learn and fuck up once in a while.

Edit: I would also like to add that Seniors are also reporting "skill slippage" due to overuse of AI. It's all anecdotal right now, but when your anecdotal evidence starts to become a statistic, it's something that the industry should really be looking into. But long term health of a company is just not a practice in the tech world.

[u/Halfwise2 → u/nihhh123]

While I'd say using AI is not much of a skill (as you said, its just knowing your goal and how to communicate it), AI literacy is a skill. As much as people hate it, I'd recommend at least interacting with it lightly. (I am aware there is a subset of people that will find that suggestion personally offensive.) Learning how it responds, formats, tone, reasoning. Its far easier to recognize what is and is not AI if you have some experience with it, especially as those obvious errors and hallucinations start to dwindle.

Too often I see people paranoid and lashing out at everything they think might be AI. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they aren't. And then they get fooled on occasion and get even angrier about it.

[u/dyslexicsuntied → u/Halfwise2]

Too often I see people paranoid and lashing out at everything they think might be AI. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they aren't. And then they get fooled on occasion and get even angrier about it.

Like this: https://old.reddit.com/r/asheville/comments/1w585cy/hurricane_helene_killed_his_wife_and_destroyed/p7d15b5/

[u/trifelin → u/nihhh123]

There are AI platforms in EdTech that give a different question to every kid and base the replies on how the kid answered the preceding questions. So it's not just LLMs that people are talking about, they are custom lessons that the software makes up as it goes along. The major problem with this AI (aside from sticking the kids in front of a screen), is that it's impossible for teachers to oversee the lessons. The software dictates what questions are asked, and each kid is getting a different experience. Only the kid can know, no adult or even peers to discuss it with. 

[u/HyperFunk_Zone]

Get screens out of our early education system

[u/LetrasetBoy]

No smartphones till 12. No socials until 18. No AI until at least 16. It just messes with the adolescent brain too much.

[u/External-Rub5852]

wow. I'm impressed. Better to eliminate all laptops and tables and smart phones until the students develop their horse teeth in 11th.

[u/thefanciestcat]

If a high school student wants to fire up Gemini or whatever on their own time to study, I guess that's between them and their parents, but I'm not seeing why you should be using it in the classroom or be allowed to use it on assignments for English/Math/Physical Sciences/History/etc. for all of K-12. The process of doing things is part of understanding them better and developing your mind.

Even if a computer is going to do it for you in the real world, you need to have some understanding of what the computer is doing.

[u/Salt-Ad9955]

All the comments saying “ditch computers in school” are ignoring one of the primary functions of education in the US - to prepare students for the workplace. It’s ridiculous to assume workplaces will be ditching computers or going more analog. It’s not happening. Really we need to focus on using computers for workplace style collaboration at the high school level. 

[u/PhysicallyTender → u/Salt-Ad9955]

Those comments are probably the same ones that will blame the education system for not preparing students for the real world/workforce.

[u/SubmissiveNewYorker]

I straight up wound up in the psych ward trying to teach middle schoolers who did nothing but AI generate their answers. This won’t fix everything but god it’s at least a start

[u/PensiveinNJ]

Is there a reason they should be using it in high school.

How are school systems this far behind.

[u/Jingtseng]

How about just No AI?

[u/MattofCatbell]

Schools should all be pencil and paper with the only tech allowed is a projector.

[u/JohnAtticus → u/MattofCatbell]

This is how all of the elite private schools are in San Fran that tech CEOs send their kids to.

That tells you everything you need to know.

[u/Palimon → u/JohnAtticus]

Every school i went too, including Uni, had pen an paper exams (I attended a private boarding school in Swizerland, went to uni in Denmark and Croatia).

It's crazy to me how idiotic the US schooling system is...

Like Ivy league doesn't proictor exams... and they think people respect the honor code... Recently they did a suivey and like 50% of harvard students admitted to cheating.

US education is just hilarious... I haven't had a exam without 3 ppl wwatching since kindergarden.

[u/vinsmokesanji3 → u/MattofCatbell]

Imo calculators should be allowed in high school

[u/Dakets → u/MattofCatbell]

Too far. Unfortunately, sometimes problems require nuance and balance to mitigate.

[u/InternationalMood337 → u/Dakets]

Yeah, having computer labs and computer classes where kids learn HOW to use computers would be the superior method.

As a writer, I'll tell you this: I write COMPLETELY differently with a pen and paper than I did using a computer with two monitors. When you write by pen and paper, you write and think in a completely different way.

There are enough studies indicating that people just don't retain information as well through screens.

[u/big-papito → u/InternationalMood337]

Because writing is not writing - writing IS thinking. It demands that you slow down, which is the point. This is why I've been lobbying at work for people to start writing their own pull request descriptions. Don't do it for me - do it for yourself.

[u/crazycatlady331 → u/InternationalMood337]

In college, I had a class in a computer lab and thought to myself "I'm going to take notes on Word and email them to myself after every class".

I failed the midterm as I didn't remember anything. When I switched back to a pen and paper, I was fine.

[u/InternationalMood337 → u/crazycatlady331]

It wasn't really until I was working through my MA in English and then my Creative Writing MFA that I realized like: "Oh shit, I'm not remembering anything I'm writing on this iPad / Laptop." I should have learned when I was Premed as a kid, BUT, I didn't. Public school really didn't teach me how to study.

Also, I learned a valuable lesson (for me personally), if I stop reading in the middle of a book and try to take a note, I completely lose the plot. I know that's a me thing, but our brains are amazing at remembering if we just give whatever we're doing 100% of our focus. The notes are better for me after the fact and way better on paper for me. These tech devices completely break that focus for me in a way that is devastating my learning potential.

[u/fer_sure → u/Dakets]

I'd argue that primary (i.e. K-3) should be entirely paper and pencil. There's plenty of time to introduce tech later.

[u/Normal-Spread-5785]

It's a one-year pause, not a ban. The parent and teacher coalition that pushed for this had asked for a two-year moratorium, so what got announced is the shorter version of what was on the table.

[u/jax362]

After going through the comments, I don't think anyone even read the article, lol

[u/snak_attak]

Meanwhile, our province just revamped our education system and AI is at the forefront as an educational tool.

[u/AdLow9970]

If I had these technologies in high school man would they be fucked

[u/furbykiller1]

Meanwhile my state education department just announced a huge partnership with Google Gemini…

[u/whitewitch_moth]

Back to pen and paper. No computers

[u/Dolores___Haze]

High schoolers don’t need it either 

[u/iamYarthox]

Curious how the ones claiming that AI can make you smarter are dumb as fuck…