I think it's mostly a symptom of heals being bonkers but also his teamups are kinda silly good.
I play thing all the time. I think the torch teamup should be shorter w/o torch around and have a longer CD in general. The sue teamup probably needs a blanket 30-40% nerf and I'm not joking lol.
I've had times as Thing with Sue on my team where I pop that teamup and I just facetank the entire enemy team and survive somehow. Isolated by Groot walls so I'm not getting healed. Lasted long enough to get back to my healers when I had zero excuses to be alive.
Exactly, a lot of people always misunderstand that low mechanical skill doesn't mean the hero is entirely easy. There's other aspects he needs to account for to gain value compared to other hero's, it's what makes him balanced.
A character having a low skill floor also doesn't mean much at all. Winston is one of the highest skill ceiling characters in the whole genre despite not really having to aim and having a simple kit.
Also rivals is a low skill floor game in general. If you want to make an argument that characters who are easy shouldn't be good then we should just make the game 6 Spider-Mans vs 6 Spider-Mans.
I'm saying OP and the guy in OP's video didn't articulate an actual argument let alone a strong one. It's at best rhetoric but it's not even good rhetoric either because it's just assuming I'm going to agree with "easy to play = should be kept weak"
The argument is not about skill floor, it's skill ceiling. The Thing has a very low skill ceiling and the difference between a decent Thing and a very good Thing is very minimal compared to most other tanks. And a character that have such a low skill ceiling should not be super meta because it pulls the whole game's skill ceiling down.
Why bother learning even a remotely challenging character when you have a character that is multiple time easier and will perform better with way less effort. It's even worse if the easier option is still clearly stronger than the harder option at their respective skill ceiling.
Thing have low skill ceiling so he shouldn't be hard meta because it will pull down the skill ceiling of the game is literally the argument the video OP posted.
But it doesn't actually make that argument because he's showing silver gameplay and saying "look this is actually pro gameplay" which it's obviously not. His argument is poorly constructed and just clickbait gotcha bs.
Well it is an opinion. The video is literally arguing for why thing shouldn't be meta which is his opinion. Again, delivery being bad doesn't mean it wasn't an argument. I'm not going to keep arguing semantics with you.
The point of the video is clear and you are clearly not interested in hearing it or adding anything new to this conversation.
it's just the entire roster not a single role and it's bc numbers are grossly inflated across the board
like you can't sit there and say that a support having 180hps on ult for 8s is overpowered and then say that characters like punisher who does 266-533dps in his ult for 10s or a shotgun that can 1-2 tap most heroes even at mid-close range is balanced and competitive lmao
they just need to nuke healing/dmg numbers across the board and remove overhealth gain from like 75% of the characters that have it
Dunno why you got downvoted, most dps can be counter picked and there is a way to play around their gameloop to ensure they get little to zero value. Off the top of my head, only 3 dps don’t care about what you do they can and will still be Thanos: Elsa, Black Cat and Bucky.
Damn I remember when it used to be unwarranted hate towards dive dps only lmao. I guess the whole role is catching heat nowadays, very inclusive of them.
I mean, I didn’t think it was a pro player when he himself said it and was also lying. What was this guy trying to prove? Cuz he only managed to prove he’s inept lol.
People who think "X hero should never be meta" should stop playing hero shooters. All heroes serve a function and to not have moments where the thing is meta is objectively a poor design choice.
What is the point in engaging with a game that's explicitly design for diverse modes of play, with very high skill ceilings as standard, regardless of what heroes are meta, and then complaining that the game might behave in a way that it supposed to. That's all before recognizing that just doing actions is not what makes a character good. You need game sense relative to the abilities you have. People who don't, get washed.
The gaming space is inhabited, within the streaming sphere, people who have no concept of the materially relevant construction of the game.
They don't understand how games are made, they don't understand how to foster positive and healthy communities. We shouldn't platform them when they say dumb shit like this that is antithetical to the game.
If a character is not fun to play against or has no skill expression, the solution is not to make them bad it's to make them more fun and make them more reliant on skill expression
I mean Mag has the ability to apply pressure from a distance, which to me makes him much easier to position. And his projectiles have a large AOE so they don't really take any still to aim.
One is not "objectively" easier than the other. Any argument you make for or against is going to be based on your own opinion or experience.
If Thing is so easy why do the majority of people I see flex to him to counter dive / "because he's meta" use every single cooldown wrong and feed? Lack of mechanical aim skill ceiling =/= lack of skill ceiling entirely. Gamesense and reaction speed go such a long way on this hero.
This clip is asserting something far more extreme than "Thing is not hard to play." It's saying his skill ceiling is so unbelievably low that a Silver Thing and a One Above All Tank Main on Thing are indistinguishable, which is just not true.
This character was made for toddlers stop the cap. Some people are worse than toddlers simple, you don't need to know anything more than right click and basic Tank skills
Maybe before the re-work when he was extremely limited on what he can do. Now he has so many cooldowns it’s pretty much ruined even the game sense required for him.
Despite his low skill ceiling, I've found there's a decent sized curve to pick him up, but once you've got it all down he feels a lot easier to get good value of, just takes some game sense and cooldown management, but that applies to most characters
Idk if youre mk or controller, but with controller it's much easier to control if you don't push the stick forward while dashing, just move it side to side to turn him
They've tripled down on the overhand instead of making the jab have a purpose. Kinda similar to what they've done with DD where throw had a purpose but wasn't necessarily better than slam, and then slam got nerfed to being functionally useless.
Nothing wrong in making Wanda meta, If people are so bothered by auto-aim, just change it, it's only a tool to recharge her actual primary right clicks. maybe to finish off some divers but that's it.
idk why people think auto-aim is something crazy and/or the most important part of her kit...
kit overall could use some work, but auto-aim is not that big of a deal as people think.
Just make it like Emma's beam or something, without sticking to the targets at the end, maybe then people will calm down, idk
I think having a character forced to be bad because they have low mechanical skill is not a good thing, Mr. F, Wanda, Doreen and Thing should all be viable. Regardless of how mechanically demanding they are
There are more to characters and much more to this game than mechanical skill
I think there’s a difference between “Viable” and “Meta”. Since Wanda already doesn’t get most of her value from her M1, you can ignore that and buff her and she can end up being meta simply because that’s the only “low skill” ability in her kit.
The “should never be meta” argument is dumb. Ideally there is no meta whatsoever and all characters are strong in the right hands with the right team comps. That should be the goal, not gatekeeping. However I do hate Thing’s haymaker spam mechanic. He should have a combo system that builds up to a higher strength haymaker execution mechanic or something of that nature.
her primary is weak tick damage, has about 10ft range, and requires the exact same aim/tracking you would with a punch brawler..
her main damage source comes from her secondary, which requires pure aim.. in fact harder than hitscan because its projectile based meaning at range, you need to lead your shots to anticipate your targets movements to connect..
using her freeze to either enable the team to get important elims, or saving your teammates from certain death take aim and timing..
she also has one of the hardest ults in the game to land, you have to know the game very well to know when to use it with success..
why do we keep acting like wanda takes no skill to play?
Her primary fire is auto-aim and she has no room for skill expression. Same goes for Mr. Fantastic, Squirrel Girl, Rocket, Cloak.. even though the braindead supports are actually strong, they shouldn't be.
these people are so ignorant they will deadass try and tell me what wanda is and does.. and they are compl6wrong, because they dont play the hero. i actually play wanda and know what she does.. and these people will tell me im wrong..
her primary fire isn't auto aim.. you can't just look at the floor and activate it and hit targets 360 degrees around you.. you want auto-aim, thats namor squids, thats moonknight ankhs, with wanda you actually have to track/trace your opponents just like you would with a punch brawler.
if anything she requires some of the most skill expression if you want to succeed beyond diamond/GM/Cel with her because you don't get crazy value for just standing main spamming neutrals like almost every other broken hero you all claim takes "skill".. you all pick the actual easy heroes to get value with for doing basic shit, you actually have to play the game, know the game, to earn value with wanda.
No you do not have to track shit, just look in their general direction.
Tracking is keeping your crosshair on the enemy or close to them so your able to flick and hit shots on them as their moving. Wanda you just need to be looking in their general direction.
you can literally go into practice range and test this yourself, the cone for the attack to track isnt as wide as people like you make it out to be, and even if that was the case, her primary is not her main source of damage.. again, its from the secondary that you must aim.
so about the same as a punch brawler except it does way less damage than a punch brawler, whats your point??
the only thing i use primary for is to get final consistent dmg on low health enemies that need to be finished, when there's lots of effects happening on the screen and its hard to see where enemies are, using the primary actually helps me identify where targets are to lock in on them, and i use it to fend off dives like spiderman or black panther from even beginning their dive.
most of her damage comes from the secondary, which is nothing but aim.. same with her freeze, aim and proper timing..
i just love how confidentally wrong you people are.. you can go into the practice range and test this yourself, if you're not within roughly 1 inch of the hero you're targetting the primary fire doesn't activate.. you need to track/trace your targets the same way you would a punch brawler, this is important especially with wanda because in teamfights when there's lots of people moving around, isolating a priority targets requires tight tracking to stay on that target you intend to eliminate.. and once again, you usually arent doing that with her primary anyways, you are utilizing the freeze and secondaries to burst them down which requires all aim..
you people seriously never played wanda and love telling people who actually play wanda very well.. how she is, and you're completely utterly wrong.
Because she shouldn't over shadow characters that require way more skill, that's the short of it. She should be either niche or a counter pick at most unless they rework her. Also Wanda's ult isn't hard to use because it has a skill cap it's hard to use because it's terrible
Its really not when you realize that "skill expression" is just something you guys want to force to determine whether a character provides value or not. In actuality, it doesnt matter at all. Characters in this game are meant to fill a role. You forcing a character that doesnt play well into a given comp means youre light throwing and dont understand the game the way you believe you do.
Every on the subreddit, I don't have to talk about Bucky because he's not the subject of the conversation rn. Genuinely what makes you think I think Bucky is balanced right now
you can't say that the outrage about bucky and wanda is remotely the same, wanda gets ridiculously more hate and coverage despite being objectively weaker for the entire game, why are we even talking about wanda when she's not meta and likely never will be barring a rework
Because she shouldn't over shadow characters that require way more skill
this is the biggest bullshit cope excuse you people always use.. most of the broken heroes in this game are just stand in main spamming neutrals for crazy value.. it requires no thought and barely any skill at all.
if you actually want to succeed with wanda beyond diamond into GM/Cel you have to work so much harder than any other hero because of how stupidly easy other heroes provide value for doing the most basic things, what are you talking about..
No one associated with "my people" has ever defended stand in main spam characters and in fact have been bitching about them since release and have been begging for any real nerfs
yes because all you morons say the same shit about wanda when you clearly have never played her before. i solo queue her into GM, been playing since S1 with over 2000 hours on roughly 80% of the heroes in this game, and playing almost any other hero is easier to find success with than it is wanda..
on one hand you idiots will say wanda is easy to play, but on the other hand none of you could play her beyond GM.. you all play the actual easy heroes because they provide stupid amounts of value for braindead gameplay.
i have beaten many wandas, im confident when i say shes played by bad players, and almost everyone utilizes her kit in the wrong ways.
here's a perfect example of how i use wanda vs how you all think wanda plays.. on the losing team.
shes not bad, its just most of you pack the game tact skill sense to be able to make her kit work, just means most of you are bad.. which is why many of you play the easy to get value from heroes that dont require much effort to get value.
here the difference between my wanda, and what you think wanda does on the losing team. wanda isnt bad, just the people playing her dont know what they're doing.
well most of you just dont know how to play wanda. her freeze is her best utility, when you can run flank, get the jump on an opponent with her phase, bait their ability, freeze and burst them down.. it takes 3 hits of her secondary to kill 250-275hp heroes, and those heroes dps falls to zero when you freeze them.many people seem to forget that.
You claimed "everyone spams down main," which isn't true, I merely pointed out that most Wanda players do that themselves.
Obviously the vast majority of characters in this game are going to get more value on a flank. Also if you want to buff Wanda because she won't work at high levels, then Peni, and BP need buffs as well.
Some characters like Wanda are just meant for begginers, and are balanced for them.
to do this with wanda at a GM level, you must know the game and be better mechanically than everyone in the lobby.. nobody is doing this by holding her primary fire down all match.
you can flank on wanda aswell.. how many times ive killed off-angle dps by phasing to their location, hitting them with 2 secondaries, freezing them so they cant attack, and hitting them with another 2 secondaries and they are dead..
you all completely downplay what wanda actually does, i've shutdown everyone from elsa/dd/panther/punisher/hela/phx/etc.. even tank dives like Thing, wait till his slam finishes, freeze him.. he moves so slow he gets frozen twice, by then the team has killed him. venom is about to swing out, freeze him, he's dead. thors about to dash out, freeze him, he's dead.
most of you are just bad at this game and can't utilize wanda's kit in ways that matter.. and you project your skill issues onto her instead.
Thing shouldn’t be too strong as this post and other people are agreeing right now, Blade, Namor and Iron Fist still require more skill than Wanda, and they are also Mid-bad except Namor
Literally tf are you yapping? Made up some enemies, most disingenuous strawman shit I've seen.
This ENTIRE post is talking abt how Thing is brainless?
Blade and IF aren't good, and their both much harder than Scarlet Bitch, and Namor who is the only viable dps you listed, requires more skill than Wanda.
in order to perform like this with wanda, you must be much better than everyone in almost every aspect.. with wanda you dont get to just spam neutral for huge value, you need to actively be everywhere doing everything.. you all are just so incredibly wrong about how wanda actually plays its insane.
Like who? Atleast with poke you have to aim. SG is also shit, and supports are a different story. Just accept that Wanda is a low skill character, even lower than those ones you deem “just stand in main spamming neutrals” so she needs to be bad and move on. Also a character being bad ≠ more skillful
you're telling me this takes no skill on wanda? you really think by holding primary fire down all match this is the result? how delusional are you people..
Define skill. No seriously, define what skill is. The dude you are replying to just stated that her main attack does chip damage with barely more reach than brawlers with the same accuracy rate.
ALL of her meaningful damage comes from a proper, aimed, and easily whiffed ability. ALL of her survivability depends on heavy map knowledge so she can fade around corners and up ledges cause the fade along ain't helping for crap.
What is the difference between her having an easy but low damage main attack vs someone like Psylocke with a moderately harder attack but hits harder while BOTH have an alternate ability that does most of the heavy lifting for damage? Psylocke hits harder cause she's harder to aim by comparison, that's the literal difference and is fair.
Any Wanda that is actually a threat that main attack does NOTHING for them. It's all that alt attack, teamup, and fading tech. The main attack only gets used if the target has a thread of hp left, otherwise they bail if they used their other abilities already.
Legitimately if Wanda didn't have a buns ult there would be people playing her like Magik: very few, but the few that know how are freaking disgusting with her.
I play on console and i can tell you theres a Wanda in almost every match and most people there are bad, trolls, lazy and plays with their butt, getting out of gold/plat playing solo is hell
i mean that's just a player issue not a wanda issue, trolls and bad players are going to troll and be bad regardless of the hero they are on, i think jeff has the highest troll rate because of his ability to team kill with his ult
additionally, if you yourself are never picking wanda, then there's five players on your team who could play wanda, but there's six on the other team, so your teams should have on average less wandas than your opposing teams, wanda getting picked often should actually make it easier because she's easy to beat, you can farm the other wanda harder each game than they are farming your wanda each game since you should have less wandas per game
and so just have the same rotation of characters be meta? it’s good thing is meta if meta was dictated by skill spider-man would be played but he barely was and it barely counted
Thing has the same amount of skill expression as BP. People are deluded in this game. Almost every character is easy to play. There are. Very very few characters that you cannot pick up in under half an hour in the practice range. All characters are easy to play. What’s difficult is playing with certain team comps against certain team comps.
I can careless how this take "exposes" my skill level but The Thing has a lot of counters. The problem I encounter (console) in ranked is no one wants to actually counter swap him or in general. Has thing been a menace this sure, however barring his main counters being banned I don't see any issue with him.
I've made the same post some days ago and got tons of up votes but ur getting down votes lmao this community is so weird. And btw tato Is right, thing definitely needs to be toned down
He's right, it's not even that Thing is a low skill character with little going on, it's that alongside the fact that he just straight up disables half the tanks from being viable whatsoever, same situation with Dino (who also is sleeper strong right now and also needs to be addressed for similar reasons.) Strange for example has been consistently gatekept out of the meta by these 2 for the past few seasons and if they nerfed both of them he'd likely be one of the best tanks in the game.
Thing shuts down a huge margin of the roster which is why he’s the worse for being meta relevant over other easy to use high value like a cnd for example. The Luna team up was kinda over kill for survivability idk why they went that route with a player base already complaining about her rotation for self preservation.
In furniture building, you should never use wood because it's an unskilled material. It has too much :
- Durability and Strength for it's price point
- It's too Easy Repair leading to less sales in the long run.
- Aesthetic Appeal is too high for it's price point.
- Sustainability is ridiculously high compared to Metal and plastic. It force you to reconsider using the other option since you can run out of it. Managing your stock should be part of the game.
- Workability for wood is too strong because other material will never have an easy time to be cut, shape, carve, and join together using standard tools.
So in order to balance the game. We should nerf it into oblivion so other material who are harder to use shines once again and create a true skill game.
Wanda is absolutely capable of being meta and it not being bs. Just because ONE ability (which is her worst dps) doesn't make it impossible to make her a non bs meta character.
Her secondary fire, stun, phase and ult are easily capable of being buffed to bring her to meta, but you only wanna focus on the ability that'd need absolutely comical buffs to be what makes her meta
Imagine being so pressed because there's a hero that makes a game, a free to play game meant for literally one who wants to play it, accessable to ALL skill levels.
Being so bent out of shape because this game is actually meant to be enjoyed by absolutely anyone who wishes to play it is wild.
Just chill. I doubt anyone here is being played to play, just people in their homes playing in their free time. It just isnt that deep.
I bet that this guy got stomped by a Thing when he had bad positioning and got rocked. Blams his bad playing against a low skill and not his own bad gameplay. Thing is countered by TONS of different characters.
If the Thing was this easy to play then why isn't he in every game running every game? Why isn't every single person that switches to Thing automatically run the game? Yes he doesn't need to do 5 different things like Black Cat to get value, but the difference between a Rondo playing Thing and some one who is a good Thing is leaps and bounds different.
No I didn't believe that this was a top thing player. He barely used his leap and doesn't know how to use cover, he was also letting them take space easily while he's at full hp.
Wtf. What a shitty argument.. Genuinely didn’t even think that was TTK and was wondering why his positioning was so bad. But “You thought it was cause I told you, right?!” 😂
I love the “Thing is brain dead “ as if Punisher won’t give him straight buckshots. Maybe the brain dead’s are the one that don’t switch to the counter that counter their original pick.
People clown on flats and other creators but THIS is what being 100% clueless looks like.
Wild the internet just gives everyone from idiots to literal children a platform to give their take.
I agree, what makes thing meta, is a dive meta, and dive shouldn’t be full meta because it’s not fun for everyone else in the game except the people playing dive
Thing shouldn't be meta not because they think he shouldn't but because he's too easy to get value out of compared to other characters that need way more skill than him than him just to be way worse.
This sentiment isn't new to Rivals and has existed as complaint over game balance before we were fetuses
I agree with this video, but pretending that Rivals isn't baby's first hero shooter is funny. The vast majority of characters in this game have low skill floors. And the ones that don't aren't really worth using.
They can nerf Thing when there more anti-dive characters in general, but especially tanks. You make Thing dogshit, dive will run lower lobbies, which is where most players are.
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u/Vineheart_01 17h ago
I think it's mostly a symptom of heals being bonkers but also his teamups are kinda silly good.
I play thing all the time. I think the torch teamup should be shorter w/o torch around and have a longer CD in general. The sue teamup probably needs a blanket 30-40% nerf and I'm not joking lol.
I've had times as Thing with Sue on my team where I pop that teamup and I just facetank the entire enemy team and survive somehow. Isolated by Groot walls so I'm not getting healed. Lasted long enough to get back to my healers when I had zero excuses to be alive.