Personally I think the second is better in every way except for pacing. Both are masterpieces but I will concede that TLOU Part I is the better story for general audiences
I have the exact same opinion. TLOU2 had a fantastic story but it expected too much ethical reflection from the player making it a less entertaining story at face value, and the pacing really suffered from the switcheroo.
Yes exactly. Part II forces you to feel anger, grief, and vengeance to an extreme degree. Then you follow those emotions down a deeply dark path. Then it forces you to play as the person you hate most, and then humanizes this person and finally weaves these stories together into an intricate tapestry. It is challenging emotionally but is imo a top 3 game all time. I cried and couldn't stop thinking about it for weeks after finishing.
This right here is why TLOU Part 2 is the greatest story ever told in the medium of video games in my mind. Unlike most "cinematic" games, Naughty Dog actively used gameplay to convey the narrative and it's really only a story that can be told in this medium. You only need to look at the disastrous HBO Season 2 to see how crucial gameplay was to make you feel everything the developers wanted you to feel
Really? I never felt those emotions at all.. I was severely disappointed pretty much the entire time playing part 2. Going from the first games writing to the second games was night and day. Part 2 felt like it was written by a hormonal teenager who was out to make a point, instead of just writing a good game. All the characters die in part 2 and youre just kind of like 'oh am I just supposed to be shocked at every death, thats it? That what neil was going for?' It's also a very poorly paced game, jumping back and forth between memories and different characters, its a mess. The gameplay and visuals were much better than part 1.
People nowadays have non-existent media literacy to understand what Part 2 was about anyways. I keep seeing how most people's takeaway from the story was "revenge is bad" and that is literally the most surface level take of the story which delves so much more into other topics like tribalism, LOL
This is a generalization in bad faith. A majority of the criticism for the second game is not "revenge is bad," and just because people don't like it doesn't mean they are media illiterate. There are much more nuanced and valid reasons people don't like the game.
You're right, the majority of criticisms surrounding the story are complaints about its "wokeness" and how a certain main character was treated. Neither of which I am going to entertain at all because those aren't good faith arguments in the first place. The "revenge is bad" complaints at least come from people who tried to engage with the story but ultimately missed the main point it was trying to make, which isn't "revenge is bad"
No, "wokeness" and the fate of a certain character are also not the majority of reasons. I agree that those are kind of dumb. I would say it's more to do with retcons and a divide in people who have fundamentally differing opinions on whether or not you think Joel made the right decision at the end of the first game and why.
And here is where I think people lack nuance and/or media literacy. We can agree that Joel made the right decision if we put ourselves in his shoes. I bet most of us would do exactly the same thing he did. I know I personally would burn the world down if it meant saving someone I loved. But at the same time, from an ethical standpoint, we can also view Joel as a horrible person because he essentially doomed the entire world by stealing its only cure and murdering the only person left who could have engineered a cure. These feelings, like the themes the game tackles aren't mutually exclusive. Likewise, we can view Joel's actions as being valid but we can also view Abby's desire for vengeance as valid. People think it has to be "if you think Joel deserved it, then you hate Joel" which is where nuance goes out the window
Ok, this is what I was talking about. I simply give reasons and you are calling that a lack of media literacy. That is a difference of opinion. My media literacy is fine.
My view is that I don't think Joel doomed the world and I don't think he is a horrible person. He acted with his heart, not maliciously. I personally believe that humanity itself isn't to be measured in the simple population of human beings in the world, but rather the presence of the essence of what makes us human. Joel saving Ellie was saving humanity, as the bond her and Joel shared was one of the last good things in the world. For them to have found each other so long after the world ended was a sign that the world was healing, even if it was just for two people. There is still good in the world. To sacrifice that for "the greater good" would be killing the very thing that makes life worth living. If we are willing to murder a child to save humanity, then humanity is already gone.
I don't think that Abby's desire for vengeance was unjustified. I don't really have a problem with her side of the story or her as a character.
No, I actually wholly agree with the points you made here. But also, I don't think Part 2 tries to frame Joel as this evil monster that needs to be brutally executed. That was always only in Abby's mind because Joel killed her father, what else could he be? I'm not exactly sure where you think Part 2 retcons the first game then? The game still depicts Joel and Ellie's relationship in a very poignant, complicated, bittersweet light
Also, to be clear, I'm not saying you must view Joel as a horrible human being either or you lack media literacy. I was more so talking about the people claiming the game frames Joel as such and tries to demonize him
I think it retcons it in the sense that it changes Ellie's interpretation of Joel's lie. In the first game, you get the sense that Ellie is fully aware that Joel was lying, but chooses to go with him anyway because after their journey together she has grown to love him as family. She is willing to live with the lie because their bond is what changed her as a person. She went from a lonely, guilt-ridden girl who thought she had no purpose to being loved and like she belonged somewhere. That is what made their journey worthwhile for her. She has found her reason to keep living.
But in part 2, Ellie had no clue that Joel was lying and was furious with him for it. Do I think she would be mad? Sure. He lied and if he didn't come clean about it after the period of time that passed in the second game then that's understandable. But the degree that she was angry with him and for how long I really did not care for. I think the Ellie of the first game would be mad at him for a time, but she would understand why he did what he did and be grateful that he saved her life because she actually wants to live it now.
Again, I have no problem with the anger towards Joel from Abby's side. He murdered her father, of course she would be pissed at that. I was more talking about the anger from Ellie and how the degree of it lessens the meaning of the journey they went through together in the first game. I interpreted the ending as that the lie and any feelings she has towards him about it are trivial compared to the love they have for each other. And that they would more or less live happily after that, or as close as you can get in the apocalypse.
Okay, yours is actually one of the rare criticisms for this game's story that I accept as valid because you are able to go in-depth and explain why you felt like it altered the trajectory of the story. So often I just come across the most surface level takes and it all boils down to the sequel didn't meet the fanfic that many fans developed in their mind. More "Joel & Ellie adventures", etc.
While I think you made a perfectly valid point, allow me to provide my own perspective as well. Personally, I never took the ending of the first game as Ellie fully coming to terms with Joel's lie. I always saw it as to some extent she knew he was lying, but because of the journey they were on, she so desperately wants to believe he was telling the truth. We can see in the beginning of Part 2, she was acting quite distant towards him at first because of her conflicted emotions. It's only after Joel plays the guitar that she starts warming up again. Then on her birthday, her relationship with Joel is almost fully mended, but the Fireflies graffiti at the end tests their relationship once more. And by the time they found the couple that ran away in the hotel, Ellie can no longer buy into Joel's lie. As for Ellie finding meaning in life that doesn't revolve around her sacrifice, I personally don't think she's at that point yet. It may be her arc in Part 3 and I would love to see that. But at the end of the day, this is just how we all interpret the story differently and I understand your disappointment that it feels like Ellie's development regressed in the sequel
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u/MrExtravagant23 11h ago
Personally I think the second is better in every way except for pacing. Both are masterpieces but I will concede that TLOU Part I is the better story for general audiences