Intermediate learner plateau tools

[u/hate_love_languages]

I mainly have studied Japanese (TL), and used a variety of tools like for:

• dictionary lookups
• video transcript dictionaries
• google translate
• flashcard apps

But I still keep a seperate tab open to ask AI about more complex things like slang, idioms and complex grammar.

Wondering if anyone uses tools for the problem I'm having.

[u/silvalingua]

A good textbook is what you need. If you follow it, there is no plateau at any level.

[u/hate_love_languages → u/silvalingua]

I've tried textbooks and I found that I learn slower compared to immersion, though I did find Tae Kim's guide helpful for japanese basics.

I found myself knowing all the vocab and grammar but may not be able to tie it all together. Or I found an idiom, slang, or something that a textbook would never teach.

[u/silvalingua → u/hate_love_languages]

> I found myself knowing all the vocab and grammar but may not be able to tie it all together.

That's what textbooks are good at.

> Or I found an idiom, slang, or something that a textbook would never teach.

Nobody says that a textbook should be your only resource; it should be your main resource, though. Of course you should supplement it by a lot of input, according to your needs and preferences. Idioms are usually collected in special books for learners, it would be impossible to include so many of them in a textbook.

Slang is not usually taught in textbooks, first because it's of limited interest, second because it changes often and quickly. Textbooks teach a certain core knowledge: a core vocabulary which about everyone needs.

[u/AppropriatePut3142]

Migaku and Language Reactor are the two most popular tools for this use case.

[u/hate_love_languages → u/AppropriatePut3142]

I've used Language Reactor a lot, but not so much Migaku. I would say they fall under dictionary lookup/video transcript dictionaries. I found that they might be great for simple vocab/phrase lookup, but not so good at nuanced meaning or complex grammar.

Also looking for a tool mainly for text (they seemed more tailor to videos).

[u/AppropriatePut3142 → u/hate_love_languages]

Ah I see now.

For Spanish, I read on Kindle, and occasionally use the machine translation to translate sentences to understand idioms, slang or new grammar. Not as effective as an LLM but often enough. I hear MT is pretty lousy at Japanese though.

In Chinese I find the dictionaries (ABC/Key) I use in Pleco are almost always enough, but Chinese structurally has advantages there I guess.

To some extent I think the finer points are things you pick up through exposure rather than lookups, although I admit lookups wouldn't hurt.

[u/hate_love_languages → u/AppropriatePut3142]

For Chinese, I wonder about more internet slang, though depends why you're learning and how you will implement your learnings.

I'm thinking of like "lying flat", "let it rot", AA, 草; without context can mean something else entirely. I'm not sure if there are better examples that are longer sentences, "modern idioms", or complex grammar that may have multiple interpretation.

[u/AppropriatePut3142 → u/hate_love_languages]

躺平 and 摆烂 are both in the current CC dictionary. AA is something I've only come across in speech; 草 (I assume as a minced oath) I assume you'd only see on Chinese social media, which yeah I think LLM assistance would help a lot with! I mostly read novels where ABC is pretty good for grammar lookups.

[u/dojibear → u/hate_love_languages]

You don't WANT a tool that tells you the answer. How does that teach YOU how to figure out the answer yourself without a tool (which is your goal)? I suspect there is no tool for nuance and subtlety. It is a MYTH that modern computer programs can do anything that a human can do.

For spoken Japanese I watch youtube videos in spoken intermediate Japanese. I use LR to see ENGLISH subtitles. The subtitles tell me (roughly) what meaning is being expressed. My goal is to figure out how that sequence of spoken Japanese words expresses that meaning.

Nuance? Subtlety? Implying without saying? Those are different in every society. They often include things other that words: situation, facial expressions, bowing, tone of voice, hesitating and so on. Even a human only learns that gradually, by exposure to a new culture. A computer tool? Forgeddaboutit!

[u/hate_love_languages → u/dojibear]

My goal is to learn the language as quickly and efficiently as possible, so I would want figure it out myself, but not spend more time than necessary; I think having tools to reduce friction and time spent finding the answers are helpful.

My primary goal with Japanese was more on the reading side, so you tend to lose the physical and vocal cues, and written language tends to be more complex.

Take this example:
「えっと……朝倉さんがよければなんだけど、今回のお詫びとして何か俺に朝倉さんの好きなラノベをプレゼントさせてもらえないかな？」

「ふぇ………………」

「だ、ダメかな？」

「っ！　ひょ、ひょろこんで！」

「ひょ、ひょろこんで」 is not proper Japanese but the character stuttering. Yomitan doesn't give me anything useful.

[u/Due_Photo_5206]

Well I’m developing this :

https://akgang-rgb.github.io/NotaTranslator

The ai mode enhances it for rare idioms. Although Japanese is not object of a full dictionary there, it may help.  Do you know online Japanese dictionary with free or limited but generous access ? Maybe I could add it when I have resources…

[u/hate_love_languages → u/Due_Photo_5206]

The link doesn't work. Also for Japanese dictionaries, you should check out Yomitan/Yomichan, they have suggested dictionaries that you need to load to use them.

[u/Due_Photo_5206 → u/hate_love_languages]

Ok corrected tx

[u/ZealousidealMouse629]

Are these working for you? How is your ability to communicate in Japanese?

[u/hate_love_languages → u/ZealousidealMouse629]

my main goal was to be able to read novels, so my verbal communication skills falls behind my reading skills, but I've had decent conversations with Japanese locals during my trips, and sometimes get asked if I live in the country.

[u/ZealousidealMouse629 → u/hate_love_languages]

That’s a solid goal and definitely challenging. Understanding novels requires more than just technical understanding of the language. It requires knowing nuances in meaning, cultural references and access to experiences that only a native might have experienced. But it sounds like you’ve made some awesome progress. I lived in Japan for a year and it was one of the best experiences of my life.