r/classics Feb 12 '25

Best translation of the Iliad and the Odyssey (megathread)

457 Upvotes

It is probably the most-asked question on this sub.

This post will serve as an anchor for anyone who has this question. This means other posts on the topic will be removed from now on, with their OPs redirected here. We should have done this a long time ago—thanks for your patience.

So, once and for all: what is your favorite translation of the Iliad and the Odyssey?


r/classics 6d ago

What did you read this week?

7 Upvotes

Whether you are a student, a teacher, a researcher or a hobbyist, please share with us what you read this week (books, textbooks, papers...).


r/classics 9h ago

Best Gilgamesh translation for verse

Post image
35 Upvotes

Hey folks.

I'm an aspiring writer and I'm interested in the Epic of Gilgamesh for both style and source.

I've working through classical/epic poetry lately, where I read the book alongside audio so I can actually hear the verse while I follow along on the page. This is what I have so far:

  • Paradise Lost -- I'm using Quayle for Books I and IV (in fact he's the reason I started doing this in the first place) and Simon Vance for the rest because Quayle never did the other ten books.
  • Beowulf -- I've got both Seamus Heaney's translation and the Michael Alexander Penguin Classics one, but Heaney's the one I actually want to work from. I'm planning on going with Guidall, who reads the full unabridged version of this (haven't begun yet).
  • The Odyssey -- Fagles, read by Ian McKellen (this is gold tbh).
  • The Iliad -- also Fagles, but I skipped the famous Derek Jacobi recording once I found out it's abridged and cuts huge chunks. Went with the newer unabridged one by Vidish Athavale instead, which has been quite good.
  • The Aeneid -- Also Fagles to basically stick with the same translation style, with Simon Callow narrating. I also enjoyed Chad Lloyd's free YouTube version (which I listened to while I was waiting for my Audible credits to replenish). My friend who lives and breathes this basically recommended Fitzgerald (followed by him telling me I should learn Latin and read the original 😅). I'm still only partway through this.

I have Samuel Butler and W.H.D. Rouse versions of Homer's epics, but I find those to be prose translations where it's more focused on the plot vs. the language. I also got Emily Wilson's versions, but haven't had a chance to read it yet (although my wife absolutely loves her version).

But the real reason I chose Fagles is because I want verse that I can be inspired by, not prose. I love what Cormac McCarthy and Toni Morrison do in their writing, where they channel KJV and Milton and wrap their own styles around it. I find that verse helps you a lot more in writing more beautiful prose.

For instance, McCarthy opens Blood Meridian describing the kid's family as being from a line of "hewers of wood and drawers of water", to convey a ton of meaning about the character. He does something similar with Milton later in the book, when Judge Holden teaches the gang to make gunpowder which is similar to the scene in Paradise Lost where Satan teaches the fallen angels the same thing (so the Judge as Miltonic Satan effectively). Morrison does her own version of this in Beloved and other books.

I say all this to basically give you an idea of what I am looking for.

Now I'm looking at Gilgamesh and debating between Ferry's '92 verse and the brand new Armitage translation that just came out.

From what I could tell online, Ferry's comparisons seem to be Fitzgerald's Odyssey or Heaney's Beowulf, which is exactly what I want. Armitage's worked with an Oxford Assyriologist and he's the guy behind the best modern Gawain and Pearl translations, so obviously his version is also solid.

Unfortunately, looks like there isn't an audio version of either one. The only recorded version I could find was Guidall reading Mitchell's translation, which I don't think would work for me. So for me this one comes down to the writing itself, and which version would be the most lyrical and verse-like.

So has anyone actually read the new Armitage yet? Which of the two would you recommend based on what I am looking for?

And attached is a hastily taken picture of my shelf with some of these classics.


r/classics 1h ago

Looking for a good audiobook/recording of Fitzgerald’s Oedipus at Colonus

Upvotes

ELA people, help is appreciated.I’m teaching *Oedipus at Colonus* and using the Robert Fitzgerald translation. I’m trying to find a good audio version so students can follow along, but I do not want one of those painfully dry “person reading into a microphone” recordings.

Apparently there was a 1978 BBC Radio 3 production of the Fitzgerald translation with Michael Redgrave as Oedipus, John Hurt as Polyneices, and Joss Ackland as Creon, which sounds perfect, but I cannot find it streaming anywhere.

Does anyone know where that recording lives, or know of another solid recording of the Fitzgerald translation with good actors?

Free would be amazing, but I’m willing to pay if the performance is actually good.
Thanks!

P.S. I have never taught it before, so if you have any ideas or resources that would be appreciated.


r/classics 16h ago

A really stupid question about Hades

22 Upvotes

Did the Greeks believe that EVERYONE (other than the blessed few who went to the Elysian Fields) wound up in Hades…or just other Greeks?

I ask because twice in The Odyssey, we are treated to visions of Hades in which conveniently only Greeks are there. Odysseus visits Hades and meets various heroes of Greek mythology including Achilles….but not, for example, a single Trojan (not even, say, Hector). Similarly, when the Suitors are conducted into Hades, who should they run across but Agamemnon.

Now,naturally, poetic license must be given its due, but is this representative of how Hades is depicted in other Greek works?


r/classics 7h ago

Calypso, clothing, and “covering” in Odyssey 5: death imagery, concealment, and Odysseus’ re-emergence? Spoiler

3 Upvotes

I am rereading the Odyssey after many years, and Book 5 has fascinated me much more than I expected. While reading it, I started wondering whether the repeated imagery of clothing, veiling, covering, immersion, and re-emergence might play a larger role in the structure of the book than I had previously noticed.

I came to this through the old debate about Calypso herself. There is the interpretation associated especially with Hermann Güntert’s Kalypso, which connects Calypso with death and the otherworld, partly through her name and partly through comparative material. Meuli strongly resisted the attempt to reconstruct an ancient death-goddess behind the Homeric figure. Kranz’s description of her as a Verbergerin, a “concealer,” seems more cautious and in some ways more useful: whatever her prehistory may have been, Calypso is the figure who keeps Odysseus hidden from the human world. Christopher Metcalf has more recently revisited the underworld interpretation and argued for much greater restraint in what can be inferred from the comparative evidence.

What first caught my attention was Calypso’s clothing.

After Hermes’ embassy, once she has agreed to let Odysseus go, Calypso dresses herself at Odyssey 5.228ff. in an argypheon pharos, usually understood as an argent, silver-white, or shining robe. She puts a golden girdle around her waist and a kalyptra, a veil, over her head.

My first thought was that this might mark a change of costume. If Calypso had previously been dressed in black or dark clothing, then the appearance of a luminous robe at the moment when she releases Odysseus could suggest a shift away from death or concealment and toward re-emergence.

That idea turned out to have no textual basis. Homer does not tell us what Calypso was wearing before. There is no black garment in the poem, so the supposed chromatic transition cannot carry any weight.

The parallel with Circe makes the problem even clearer. At Odyssey 10.543–545, Circe wears essentially the same combination of shining robe, golden girdle, and veil, and she does so when she is preparing Odysseus for his journey to Hades. This makes it difficult to assign a simple “return to life” meaning to Calypso’s costume. The formula may instead belong to a situation in which a divine woman is about to send the hero onward.

Once I gave up the idea of the black garment, I began noticing something broader in Book 5.

Calypso’s name is normally connected with kalyptein, “to cover,” “conceal,” or “hide.” Whatever one thinks of the stronger underworld interpretation, her narrative function is certainly to keep Odysseus out of sight and outside the human world.

There is also the old proposal associated with Alfred Heubeck that Kalypsō might be related to a reconstructed Kalypsaneira, roughly “she who conceals men.” I know that this reconstruction is hypothetical and disputed, though the possible meaning fits Calypso’s role in the poem remarkably well.

Then, at the moment when she prepares to release Odysseus, Calypso herself puts on a kalyptra, literally a covering or veil.

She also bathes Odysseus and gives him clothes for the journey. Those clothes later become a problem during the shipwreck:

“heimata gar rh’ ebaryne, ta hoi pore dia Kalypso”

“for the clothes which divine Calypso had given him weighed him down”

(Odyssey 5.321)

The clothes given by Calypso are now physically dragging Odysseus beneath the water.

Ino-Leucothea then appears and tells him to take them off. She gives him her kredemnon, her veil or headdress, which will keep him from perishing in the sea.

This sequence struck me as especially suggestive. Calypso clothes Odysseus. Those clothes become dangerous. He has to strip them off. He then receives a different kind of covering from another goddess, and that covering helps him survive.

The vocabulary of covering continues through the episode.

At 5.435, a great wave covers Odysseus:

“ton de mega kym’ ekalypsen”

Then, at the very end of the book, once he has reached land, the same verbal family appears again:

“hōs Odysseus phylloisi kalypsato”

“So Odysseus covered himself with leaves”

(Odyssey 5.491)

A few lines later, Athena puts him to sleep:

“phila blephar’ amphikalypsas”

“covering/enfolding his dear eyelids”

(Odyssey 5.493)

What interests me most here is the question of agency.

At the beginning of the episode, Odysseus is in a state that can be described in terms of Calypso’s own name: he is hidden, kept away from human society and prevented from completing his nostos. During the storm, coverings continue to act upon him. The clothes weigh him down and the sea repeatedly covers him.

At the end of Book 5, the grammar changes. Kalypsato is middle: Odysseus covers himself.

His hiding under the leaves is temporary and self-protective. He is concealing himself in order to survive until he can enter the human world again.

The fire simile at the end of the book also seems important in this context. Odysseus hidden beneath the leaves is compared to someone preserving a spark under ash so that the “seed of fire” does not perish. Something living remains hidden under a covering, waiting to emerge again.

There is another detail that I found striking. The goddess who gives Odysseus the saving veil is Leucothea, the “White Goddess.” Shortly after giving him the kredemnon, she disappears into the sea, and Homer says:

“melan de he kyma kalypsen”

“and the black wave covered her”

(5.353)

I would be reluctant to build too much on the color contrast by itself. Still, within a book so concerned with covering and survival, the conjunction of Leucothea’s name, the black wave, and the verb kalypsen seems worth noticing.

This made me wonder whether Book 5 develops several different forms of concealment over the course of Odysseus’ departure from Ogygia. At first he is concealed by Calypso. During the shipwreck, covering becomes physically dangerous. He strips away Calypso’s clothes and accepts Leucothea’s veil. After reaching land he is naked and exposed, then chooses his own concealment beneath the leaves. Sleep covers him at the very end of the book, just before his re-entry into human society in Book 6.

This seems relevant to the older interpretation of Calypso as a figure connected in some way with death.

I do not think the pattern can establish Güntert’s historical claim about Calypso’s origin. Metcalf’s methodological warning seems important here, since literary patterning inside the Odyssey does not by itself tell us what sort of divinity Calypso may have been before Homer.

What I find more plausible is that Book 5 can make use of imagery associated with disappearance, death, and return to life even if Calypso’s historical origin remains uncertain. Her name, the clothes she gives Odysseus, the repeated acts of covering, the threat of drowning, and the final emergence onto Scheria all seem capable of participating in the same poetic field.

I later found that some of this has already been discussed in important scholarship.

Ann L. T. Bergren’s “Allegorizing Winged Words: Simile and Symbolization in Odyssey V” (Classical World 74.2, 1980, pp. 109–123; later reworked as “Similes and Symbol in Odyssey V” in Weaving Truth) seems especially relevant to the symbolic structure of the book and to the repeated imagery of covering.

Elizabeth Block, “Clothing Makes the Man: A Pattern in the Odyssey” (Transactions of the American Philological Association 115, 1985, pp. 1–11), treats clothing as an important part of Odyssean identity.

Dianna Rhyan Kardulias, “Odysseus in Ino’s Veil: Feminine Headdress and the Hero in Odyssey 5” (TAPA 131, 2001, pp. 23–51), deals directly with Odysseus’ use of Ino’s feminine headdress and its significance for the episode.

David West, “Shipwrecked Spouses: Leukothea’s Veil and Marital Reunion in the Odyssey” (2020), offers another reading of the veil, connecting it with the larger theme of marital reunion.

Christopher Metcalf, “Calypso and the Underworld: The Limits of Comparison” (2020, pp. 417–431), is especially useful for the history of the underworld interpretation and for its methodological difficulties.

I am also very interested in the Circe parallel. At Odyssey 10.543–545, she wears essentially the same robe, girdle, and veil as Calypso when she prepares Odysseus to travel to the dead. I wonder whether the shared costume belongs to a liminal role: both goddesses have detained Odysseus, and both eventually become responsible for sending him across a boundary. Calypso sends him away from Ogygia and back toward the mortal world; Circe sends him toward Hades.

I would be very interested to hear what people who work on Homer make of all this.

How far can the pattern involving kalyptein, clothing, veiling, stripping, and concealment reasonably be taken?

Is there scholarship beyond Bergren that treats these moments in Book 5 as parts of a single system?

Has anyone discussed the parallel clothing of Calypso and Circe specifically in terms of their role when dispatching Odysseus?

And does the shift from Odysseus being covered by external forces to kalypsato, “he covered himself,” at the end of the book seem significant to others?

I would also be grateful for any work on death-and-rebirth imagery in Book 5 that avoids making a strong claim about Calypso’s historical origin as an underworld goddess.

These ideas came out of rereading the poem rather than from a thesis I am trying to defend, so corrections and objections would be very welcome. The original idea about a nonexistent black dress turned out to be wrong, though checking it was what made me pay much closer attention to the way Book 5 handles covering and concealment.


r/classics 10h ago

A good reference book on the geography of ancient grece?

1 Upvotes

Hi, sometimes when I read, let's say, the Iliad I want to know more about the cities or regions mentioned in the poem. I know about "A dictionary of Greek and Roman geography" by William Smith, but I was wondering if you know of a more recent work on this subject. Any suggestion is welcomed. Thanks in advance.


r/classics 11h ago

HUGE 9ft-tall statue of a Ptolemaic(??) king, late 4th century BCE.

Post image
1 Upvotes

r/classics 13h ago

The Epic of Gilgamesh — An online reading & discussion group starting Sept 6, all welcome

Thumbnail
1 Upvotes

r/classics 14h ago

Classics masters

0 Upvotes

Hi all! Apologies if this is not the right place to post this but I am in need of some advice/what you did. My partner and I are moving for his work, but the state we will most likely end up in only has one classics program in the whole state, and it’s multiple hours from where we would be. Now, I know I could do an online program but my undergraduate professors/mentors both advised me to do an in-person program due to the benefits of being in a classroom but also potential opportunities to TA or help elsewhere where I could get a small stipend rather than going into further debt.
I suppose I’m just in a bit of a pickle and am wondering if anyone has been in a similar situation and what you did?


r/classics 14h ago

Some Latin Some Greek

Thumbnail
substack.com
1 Upvotes

“v(iva) v(ivis). Petilia, M(arci) f(ilia),

Tertia sibi et

M(arco) Petilio patri.

ζῶσα Πετιλία Τερτία

ἑαυτῇ καὶ Μάρκῳ

Πετιλίῳ πατρί.”

“Petilia Tertia, while alive, [dedicated this] to herself and to her father, Marcus Petilius.”


r/classics 1d ago

Should i read The Republic by Plato?

14 Upvotes

I am 13 years old and in 9th grade, ive read What Does It All Mean? By Thomas Nagel and i really liked the philosophical ideas in it. I just discovered this book and i was wondering if i should get it.

I read a few paragraphs of the open public translations of the book and i felt some sentences were difficult to easily grasp without intense thinking. Mostly, i am worried about the difficulty of readability.

I was thinking of getting the Penguin Classics version translated by desmond lee since the reviews said the english is much more modernised and easier.

Also, i had a sneak peak at a brief paragraph related to the theory of forms and MAN WAS I EXCITED, after some thinking i really understood it and realised that i myself have thought about something similar in maths and physics classes…

So should i get the book and read or should i not get it because it is too complex and advanced for my age or just generally.


r/classics 21h ago

What was everyday life really like for an ordinary Roman who wasn’t rich or powerful?

Thumbnail
0 Upvotes

r/classics 2d ago

Did late antique audiences think of the Aeneid as fan fiction or true Roman history? What did ancient people think of “new stories” in general?

21 Upvotes

Simply put, say a writer pens a new epic to be performed, would audiences think of it as history? Do they think of it as dramatic depiction of shared sociohistorical memory? Or as pure fiction?

Or perhaps, the Homeric duology of the Iliad and the Odessy, were well-known classics in the ancient world. How did ancient Greeks and Romans perceive "new" stories like the lost Telegony or the Aeneid? When these came out, did the ancients believe them to be based on some kind of historical memory or religious tradition, or was it new to them?

I recall that a Greek playwright in antiquity wanted to write a new play about Dionysus. When they did, would they be drawing from religious or historical traditions or would they innovate new details?


r/classics 1d ago

I had an idea for a game based on the Labyrinth; not sure if the people here are into that sort of thing, but I think it would be a very natural fit. Afterall, Greek myths also supposed to be exciting fun, right?

Thumbnail
3 Upvotes

r/classics 2d ago

A 509-yr-old copy of the Odyssey, now housed in Wilson Library, UNC Chapel Hill

Thumbnail gallery
38 Upvotes

r/classics 2d ago

Daniel Mendelsohns new translation of The Odyssey

1 Upvotes

r/classics 2d ago

Do you think Nolan's film will inspire new generations to study classics like the Percy Jackson stories have?

16 Upvotes

I know several people who became interested in classics after reading PJ, I wonder if this film could have an even bigger effect.


r/classics 3d ago

I think about the Herculaneum scrolls that were accidentally destroyed in the modern age atleast daily

75 Upvotes

During the initial excavations some were simply used to light fires without even knowing what they were, and that is inevitable damage that i can get around... but then came the unwrapping experiements done ON THE ACTUAL SCROLLS. Hundreds were destroyed beyond any salvation, some salvaged a single letter or two, and seeing photos of those almost make me shred a tear. How many unique sources, how many unique voices from the past, how many possible contributions to our understanding of ancient thought and daily life have been erased from history forever, and to think we were this close from being able to read them. I used to follow closely updates on the herculaneum scrolls but having constantly this thought in the back of my head made me sincerely sick.

sorry for bad english!


r/classics 2d ago

road to classics (ba) as a singaporean

3 Upvotes

hello! i'm an IB student from singapore, and i really want to study overseas in the uk for classics for my undergraduate degree!

i'm currently in year 4/5 of the IB MYP and plan to take anthropology and literature at HL, alongside physics. unfortunately, my school doesn't offer classical languages :(

but of course classics is a very "niche" field esp for singaporeans...

would love to know if there are any current classics students in this subreddit that could share your personal experiences (especially international students!) i'm super interested to hear what anyone has to say, because it's a super controversial and unrecommended path, especially where i live, so any advice would be wonderful!

thank you so much!


r/classics 3d ago

Hellenists and Greek-side readers, which Roman/Latin works do you particularly enjoy?

10 Upvotes

I've always been rather biased and enjoyed Greek culture and literature way more than Roman. Greens over reds, always :). I don't have Virgil on my shelf, somewhat by accident but I believe it grew to a proper statement haha. There are some honorary Romans on my Greek shelves though – Tacitus, Ovid, Propertius, Catullus, Lucretius and Petronius. (Reluctantly, Seneca and Sallust also found their ways and managed to creep in, but for other reasons; Pliny the Younger I do enjoy from time to time too).

To people who are firmly on the Greek side of the fence, which Romans or Latin writers get a pass from you and why?


r/classics 3d ago

ISO a specific copy/translation of the Iliad and the Odyssey

4 Upvotes

I realize that there has been tons of asks re this text lately but I have a very specific ask and would love some assistance…

When I was in the fifth grade (~2005), my favourite teacher recommended the Iliad and the Odyssey to me. He lent me a copy. I didn’t make it through it & gave it back - admitting defeat. I would love to read this version now as adult - for sentimental reasons.

It was a hardcover (off white / beige cover) - both poems in one book - definitely in verse.
In 🇨🇦 if that helps. I’m assuming 1. it would have been published in the 90s

Does this ring a bell to anyone? Open to any educated guesses. Would love to continue to search but with some more clarity as to what I may be looking for…

Thanks in advance for any guesses!


r/classics 2d ago

What do you think of the absence of Hecate in Madeline Miller’s Circe?

Thumbnail
0 Upvotes

r/classics 4d ago

Is there any evidence that the author or authors of Homer's Odyssey made major changes to the story when adapting it from oral tales to a poetic epic?

9 Upvotes

Or are these claims that people, especially in social media, are trying to present as proven facts mostly made up, and they are more like speculations about probabilities without any basis in known sources and evidence of what the story of the Odyssey was like before it was first written down? How can we even know which changes have been made by the recorders and editors of the poems, aka "Homer", and which by many generations of different poet singers? And are there hundreds of different and distinct versions of the Odyssey, or is it mostly a matter of minor textual variations, such as typos and changes in vocabulary?


r/classics 3d ago

Thank to Underworld Gods/Goddess

Thumbnail
substack.com
1 Upvotes

Men was an Anatolian moon god, worshipped in many local cults across Anatolia. Pluto was another name for Hades, while Kore was his wife and queen of the Underworld.

[Ἀ]πελλῆς Ἀπελλήο[υς]

[Μ]ηνὶ Καμαρίτῃ καὶ

[Πλ]ούτωνι καὶ Κόρῃ εὐ-

[χὴ]ν ὅτι μοι ἐπήκουσαν

πάντα.

“Apelles, son of Apelleus, [dedicated] a votive offering to Men Kamarites, Pluto, and Kore, because they heard me in everything.”

.