[On3] BREAKING: The SEC has filed a lawsuit against LSU and head football coach Lane Kiffin, @PeteNakos reports.

[u/Fonzie5]

https://x.com/on3/status/2095555292859646137?s=46&t=FavtrbPsHpJY8Odvh2TYUA

[u/surreptitioussloth]

What does that even state a claim for?

Getting players to pursue lawsuits over rules even if it happened wouldn’t be something for courts to get into, especially when the controversy over those rules is legitimate

[u/BoldElDavo → u/surreptitioussloth]

In its complaint, the SEC requests the court “enter a preliminary and permanent injunction prohibiting Defendants from violating the Conference’s First Amendment rights by compelling the Conference to associate with conduct that is contrary to the Conference’s purpose and mission.”

Frankly I don't know how this is different from the lawsuit already taking place.

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/BoldElDavo]

It’s different because it doesn’t even make sense as a lawsuit

What relief are they really asking for against lsu/kiffin? They aren’t bringing the lawsuit and do not have the power to stop it

If the state court finds the ncaa/sec rules are unlawful, whatever this lawsuit is trying to do wouldn’t get in the way of that

I’ve pursued novel legal theories, but this is just not based on legal reality as far as I can tell

[u/BoldElDavo → u/surreptitioussloth]

It could make sense as a lawsuit. They're saying the conference has a purpose and mission, and LSU (a state entity) is compelling them to associate with conduct contrary to it.

I guess the mission is amateur athletics and the conduct contrary is hiring professional athletes, in a nutshell. The relief would be barring LSU/Kiffin from hiring professional athletes.

I don't buy it even a little bit as an argument, but if they can somehow win on the NCAA/SEC rule being speech protected by the Constitution, that would defeat the other lawsuit.

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/BoldElDavo]

Yeah, that’s the best argument they can make but when the actual harm is coming from lawsuits from players, claiming that their success there is state retaliation is a huge stretch

[u/BoldElDavo → u/surreptitioussloth]

Right, but the players aren't state actors. LSU and its employees are.

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/BoldElDavo]

But assuming the SEC gets an injunction against LSU for, what, continuing to encourage players to file lawsuits?

That still leaves them facing potential orders requiring them to let the players play and not punish the schools rostering them

It’s just weird

[u/BoldElDavo → u/surreptitioussloth]

The injunction would be stopping LSU from rostering the players, surely.

[u/DuvalHeart → u/BoldElDavo]

Even if we leave out the amateur athletics portion an organization has the right to determine who can be a member and to apply its own rules (unless said membership requirements and rules run afoul of anti-discrimination laws).

[u/SituationSoap → u/DuvalHeart]

has the right to determine who can be a member and to apply its own rules

This is true insofar as those rules don't violate the law. But the bigger thing here is...even if we accept this as a basis for the argument, that doesn't warrant a lawsuit. If the argument is "you keep bringing in people we don't want to associate with," then the response is "OK, kick them out" not "Sue them in Federal court to do...something about it"

[u/DuvalHeart → u/SituationSoap]

I think their argument is that LSU is specifically searching for players to justify a lawsuit to force the issue in a way that benefits themself rather than the players.

[u/SituationSoap → u/DuvalHeart]

That's not relevant to what I wrote, though.

[u/BoldElDavo → u/DuvalHeart]

The NCAA has been arguing that unsuccessfully for years.

Organizations do not have the right to act monopolistically in restricting a labor market. These players are getting paid now, so they are a labor market.

[u/DuvalHeart → u/BoldElDavo]

The NCAA is violating anti-trust provisions because it is an organization of competitors (the leagues) acting in collusion.

[u/BoldElDavo → u/DuvalHeart]

Quick, now tell me the conference is not an organization of competitors (the schools).

And tell me those schools aren't members of the NCAA.

[u/DuvalHeart → u/BoldElDavo]

While the universities are competitors in an athletic sense, they are not competitors in the marketplace since they don't determine the pay of the players.

[u/JX_JR → u/DuvalHeart]

What are you talking about? The universities 100% determine the pay of the players and compete for their services. Players are signing revenue sharing agreements directly with the university.

[u/Ion_bound → u/surreptitioussloth]

They're saying that they want to kick LSU out of the SEC, sounds like, and that they have the constitutional right to do so. Not sure why this would stop LSU from playing on Sunday but I can see wanting to essentially get a declaratory judgment/anti-suit injunction in a non-LA court before trying to boot LSU.

[u/SituationSoap → u/Ion_bound]

They're saying that they want to kick LSU out of the SEC, sounds like, and that they have the constitutional right to do so.

That argument doesn't require a lawsuit, though?

[u/Ion_bound → u/SituationSoap]

No, but LSU will sue if they do that to try to stay in. So by filing a lawsuit first in the Northern District of Alabama asking permission to kick LSU out, instead of letting LSU file in Louisiana asking to be let back in, they get to pick a battlefield with a less biased (and/or biased in their favor) judge.

It's genuinely good legal strategy, clearly the SEC has better lawyers than the NCAA.

[u/SituationSoap → u/Ion_bound]

No, but LSU will sue if they do that to try to stay in.

I mean that's just table stakes.

So by filing a lawsuit first in the Northern District of Alabama asking permission to kick LSU out

But that is not what they're seeking in this lawsuit?

It's genuinely good legal strategy

It is?

[u/Ion_bound → u/SituationSoap]

But that is not what they're seeking in this lawsuit?

According to One3, they want the Court to “enter a preliminary and permanent injunction prohibiting Defendants from violating the Conference’s First Amendment rights by compelling the Conference to associate with conduct that is contrary to the Conference’s purpose and mission.” That's legalese for 'Prevent them from saying we can't kick them out for breaking the rules'.

It is?

Oh yeah. Forum selection is huge and can be outcome determinative, not just in terms of judge-shopping (though that is a factor) but also in terms of choice of law. And Louisiana Civil Law is a byzantine nightmare unless you want to law school at LSU or Tulane because it's based on the Napoleonic Code instead of Anglo-American law.

[u/SituationSoap → u/Ion_bound]

That's legalese for 'Prevent them from saying we can't kick them out for breaking the rules'.

I'm not a lawyer, but this seems explicitly wrong. As far as I can tell, literally nobody has said that the SEC can't kick LSU out for breaking the rules except the courts, which makes sense because the courts routinely take a very poor view of litigants punishing someone for doing something the courts say is legal.

Forum selection is huge and can be outcome determinative, not just in terms of judge-shopping (though that is a factor) but also in terms of choice of law

OK, but the rulings against the NCAA and SEC have come from across the country, which suggests that the type of law we're dealing with at this point isn't specific to Louisiana.

But more specifically, I wasn't talking about forum shopping. I'm talking about the idea that filing what appears to be a batshit lawsuit against the university and Lane Kiffin for engaging in a conspiracy to do something that isn't illegal is a brilliant legal strategy.

[u/Cogitoergosumus → u/BoldElDavo]

My guess is its meant to draw attention and put crosshairs on the group responsible for the madness and nothing more.

[u/Mortonsbrand → u/BoldElDavo]

That reads like the conference plans to either heavily sanction, or possibly expel LSU over this.

Or am I crazy?

[u/justinbajko → u/Mortonsbrand]

To me it reads like the conference is begging a court and/or the legislature to solve this problem for it so it doesn’t have to show the world it isn’t willing to expel LSU and unmask that there are virtually no consequences for doing anything as long as money continues rolling in.

[u/Mortonsbrand → u/justinbajko]

I guess we will find out 🤷‍♂️

[u/FSUfan35 → u/justinbajko]

I'm a bit confused, and you sound like one of the most rational people on this thread so, didn't the Sec already say they would comply with the court and allow nfl players to play if they were ruled eligible by the court?

[u/justinbajko → u/FSUfan35]

I am absolutely not a lawyer. But…

I believe the SEC said they would comply with the court’s TRO, meaning they will not enforce the penalties in the rule they created until there is a ruling, but intend to argue the validity of their rule (which is this lawsuit). So with this lawsuit the SEC is asking a judge to rule their their new rule that prohibits NFL players from playing (and allows the SEC to punish schools that play them) is legal and enforceable. But until a judge rules they are complying with the TRO that says “you can’t enforce this until a judge rules.”

Either way if they “lose” they have no choice but to comply with the court. The issue is no one has won or lost yet — we just have TROs awaiting lawsuits to be heard and judges to rule.

I think.

[u/FSUfan35 → u/justinbajko]

OK that makes about as much sense as it can, and was my understanding of the timeline as well. I guess my question would just be why do they need to sue LSU now, when LSU hasn't even technically broken their rule

[u/justinbajko → u/FSUfan35]

A fair question and I honestly don’t know. I think realistically they’re doing it to get their day in court and hopefully have a judge agree that their rule is valid and enforceable, and a lawsuit is how you do that. But a lawyer could more confidently answer the “why now” question than my dumbass guessing. 😂

[u/beaver_of_fire → u/justinbajko]

I think that rule will be found to be unenforceable. It's a retaliatory rule instituted to work around court rulings. I'd hope no place in this country could do that. That's terrible for everyone.

They could vote to expel LSU at anytime. I don't think they need any reason just the votes. The thing is they won't. The conferences don't have some magic power that the NCAA doesn't or can't do. Also why do fans want to even save this current garbage system? Rip off the bandaid and let's get to nuking this entirely into the sun and get back to regional divisions, and something thats more cfb than its been the last 20 years.

[u/BoldElDavo → u/Mortonsbrand]

I don't think this specifically reads that way, but it's certainly reasonable to assume they want to punish LSU.

Basically there's already the TRO saying the NCAA and the conferences can't do anything to restrict these specific players. The SEC is now asking the courts to restrict these players because the conference can't. I'm not sure if the requested injunction would actually allow the conference to punish LSU.

[u/Mortonsbrand → u/BoldElDavo]

It’s the part about compelling association that made my eyebrows twitch.

[u/CheaterSaysWhat → u/BoldElDavo]

How does a conference have first amendment rights 

[u/Neither_Call2913 → u/surreptitioussloth]

I have a feeling that this lawsuit will go on complete hold until the lawsuit regarding the SEC’s ban on pro players is decided. But it’s being filed now to make the battlefield more clear on what battles are going to have to be fought.

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/Neither_Call2913]

I haven’t read the complaint and probably won’t bother, I just have a hard time believing the quotes I’ve seen support real claims you can pursue in federal court

[u/FormalBasket9509 → u/surreptitioussloth]

They filed it under first amendment grounds

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/FormalBasket9509]

The only first amendment argument I can imagine is that lane kiffin is agent of the state so telling players to pursue those lawsuits is an attempt to violate those association rights but that’s still insanely stupid when private parties who have pled legitimate claims that the ncaa is acting illegally are bringing these lawsuits

This is just absurd

[u/FormalBasket9509 → u/surreptitioussloth]

It’s under the first amendment right to associate (in a voluntary association)

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/FormalBasket9509]

I understand that. I am saying that is an absurd claim to be making on these facts. I really think the claim I described is the best possible argument for them. And it’s still awful

Assuming the sec won this lawsuit against lsu, it would not even solve the harm of the players bringing lawsuits against the sec

[u/FormalBasket9509 → u/surreptitioussloth]

I really think they have to file this lawsuit or concede that conferences cannot enforce rules or penalties. And federal judges will have to decide if these state judges can force conferences to not enforce mutually agreed upon rules, which really makes conferences powerless. I’m not sure the SEC, LSU or the players really want this answered but it may have to get answered.

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/FormalBasket9509]

No, they don’t have to file this lawsuit to do that. This lawsuit does not even address general enforcement of rules and penalties

The federal judge will also not be deciding whether the state court decision is acceptable here, that has to come from the process of removing or appealing the actual state court decision. Especially when the ones bringing that lawsuit aren’t parties to this case

There is a process for answering those question and lawsuits like this one are absolutely not part of it

[u/FormalBasket9509 → u/surreptitioussloth]

Well clearly their extensive legal team disagrees with you - particularly since they are enjoined in two states from exercising penalties. And they did need to file something federally to stop the state by state actions but we can agree to disagree

[u/Neither_Call2913 → u/surreptitioussloth]

If you won’t even bother to read the complaint, don’t argue about its contents.

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/Neither_Call2913]

Nobody here has read the complaint. We’re all working off the same info I am

If there’s some indication eventually that it’s not as stupid as it seems, I might read it. But some stuff is just too stupid as a big picture to bother with the details

[u/Ranger_Nietzsche → u/surreptitioussloth]

It's apparently forcing the SEC to endorse the idea of professionals participating in amateur athletics, in violation of their 1st Amendment rights

[u/Dadvocate12 → u/surreptitioussloth]

I believe the point is trying to establish the SEC's right to enforce it's rules against Lane Kiffin and LSU.

The Key difference is it's filed in a court not based in Louisiana.

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/Dadvocate12]

That’s not the claim they’re apparently bringing

The sec is losing the ability to enforce those rules because of orders in cases that lsu and Kiffin aren’t parties to. This just isn’t part of the process for challenging that

[u/Dadvocate12 → u/surreptitioussloth]

It's the strategy behind the claim. They're using first amendment arguments in court that even if those players are deemed eligible, the SEC still has rights to prevent members from rostering them and has rights to punish its members if they do.

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/Dadvocate12]

Those are arguments you have to make with regards to the specific order in place. This is a side lawsuit that will not resolve this if the state court judges decide the ncaa/sec cannot punish schools for rostering these players

[u/Dadvocate12 → u/surreptitioussloth]

The state court already ruled the players don't have standing against the SEC, so that scenario won't happen.

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/Dadvocate12]

They ruled that some of the players do and other don’t

[u/Johnny_Kilroy_84 → u/surreptitioussloth]

It’s ridiculous. LSU and Lane said they’d have a spot, if eligible. The players in question have a TRO giving them (at least temporarily) eligibility. There are hundreds of players across the country, including one of the marquee players in the SEC who are going to play under a TRO despite the NCAA declaring them ineligible.

[u/chaser676 → u/Johnny_Kilroy_84]

The idea is that if this is a coordinated attempt to undermine the SEC bylaws, the SEC is pre-emptively suing to affirm they ability to enforce the penalties for the rules that LSU voted for. This is similar to what the Big 12 did with Sorsby.

As much as LSU fans keep saying "everyone else is doing it, it's not us", it's you leading the charge, and you know it.

[u/Johnny_Kilroy_84 → u/chaser676]

Do the SEC bylaws allow a team to roster a player deemed ineligible by the NCAA?

What were the punishments for Alabama rostering and playing a former professional basketball player last year? When is the lawsuit against mizzou and Kentucky dropping as each has actively recruited (and mizzou signed) a former nba player just this week?

[u/SituationSoap → u/chaser676]

The idea is that if this is a coordinated attempt to undermine the SEC bylaws, the SEC is pre-emptively suing to affirm they ability to enforce the penalties for the rules that LSU voted for.

This sentence doesn't make any sense.

[u/Varithos15 → u/surreptitioussloth]

Getting players to pursue lawsuits against the SEC is something that directly violates the SEC bylaws, I think.

They can pursue lawsuits, but the school itself can't encourage it.

[u/surreptitioussloth → u/Varithos15]

And if they want, the sec could try to punish lsu and kiffin through the normal process for bylaw violations

That would probably violate the state court order, or it would get amended to stop it, but either way jumping to a completely different federal lawsuit is not how you enforce bylaws

[u/g2lv → u/surreptitioussloth]

Yeah, what are they even doing here? The courts don’t weigh in on hypothetical questions.

[u/Ranger_Nietzsche → u/g2lv]

They're saying the court forcing the SEC to allow playing professionals violates their first amendment rights by creating the appearance of the SEC endorsing professional players in college athletics

[u/cabforpitt → u/Ranger_Nietzsche]

That makes sense as an argument in the court case where the players are suing the SEC, but not really as a separate lawsuit.