r/law • u/bendubberley_ • 15h ago

Legal News The judge in the Lindsay Clancy case is admonishing jurors who are refusing to follow his instructions

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u/Sad_Mouse_8251 14h ago

There are a huge number of innocent people who have been convicted because the situation is too complex or nuanced for a jury to understand, and they understood that (or were pushed by their lawyer) and ended up taking the plea deal for probation, but they still live with a false conviction. Dumb juries are an unethical/incompetent prosecutors dream. Dumb juries are more common than not. They are selected because of their ignorance or likelihood to agree with the state. Yes I understand voir doir, I'm talking about how things actually work in xyz county you've never heard of.

Its happened to me. I was innocent, the DA was extremely aggressive. My plea deal went from 7 years of prison to 1 year of probation. My decision was 1 year of probation vs. a jury trial and potentially 7 years (or more) if I didn't just take the plea deal. My lawyer said I had a 90% chance the jury would acquit me, but the 10% was a huge gamble, and I may just happen to get a jury who will convict me either way depending on voir doir. Years of my life, away from my young kids, ending my career, or 1 year of probation. What choice would you make? Bear in mind I was innocent the entire time.

The fairy tale of proving your innocence is rare. Its more like you are punished unless you have concrete evidence of you innocence. It's the opposite of how justice is actually supposed to work.

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u/JooseTheGuice 12h ago

An incredibly similar thing happened to me and I was forced to make a very similar choice. Sending you love, it's fuckin rough. I've literally lost housing and jobs over some shit I didn't do.

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u/Sad_Mouse_8251 11h ago

My hope is that the whole criminal justice system gets reformed, top to bottom. Starting with prosecutorial misconduct. Literally I want to take down the system and hold everyone accountable.

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u/BangBangTheBoogie 10h ago

It should also be noted that judges are given tremendous leeway on how they run their courts, and outside of public trials can often wield that to whatever bias they may have. Then there is the cooperative relationship with Law Enforcement, even when the LEOs have a history of fabrication or overreach. Every personal account I've had or heard of had the judge unquestioningly taking police testimony as undisputed fact, and relaying to their jury that they are not allowed to question such facts, even if there is good reason to question it.

I don't know if it's for expediency or just precedence, but actual justice is woefully rare in our courts. I understand that practicing law is a complex thing, but I also think it's fairly safe to say that corruption is present and prominent in our courts, and that this dogma of "do not question me or the facts presented" does nothing to ensure consistency or prevent corrupt/apathetic enforcement of said laws.

And all of THAT is still predicated on the laws actually being sound in their intent, which is extremely doubtful given the situations we find ourselves in.

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u/PeppermintEvilButler 13h ago

They want idiot jurors. If you sound competent or intelligent they will dismiss you. Lawyers want you confused so that either the other side is forced to cut a deal or can assure it will end up in a hung jury. Over half of the citizens of America cannot read beyond a 5th grade level. Now take half of those and understand that they don't come close to understanding any words beyond a kindergarten level. The majority of the population is beyond stupid, more stupid than you can comprehend because usually those morons don't make appearances online because they are busy at their local spot with the other morons complaining about things that could be answered with a 10 second internet search. 

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u/NewEnglandHeresy 10h ago

I'm a trial attorney, and you, like most people on this subreddit since moderation became lax, are talking profoundly out of your ass. No. We don't want a jury full of idiots. We can accept some, but that's not a strategy the way you seem to think it is. Also—I can say this because this is anonymous and therefore not a representation of skill—I have never had a jury return a verdict against any of my clients.

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u/richardcraniumIII 7h ago

I was super lucky to have jury duty on a criminal case of Cops vs Bad Guy. This was in the early 90s before the internet exploded. Twelve people of different ages, sex, and races. We deliberated with serious intent. We all agreed that the cops lied. Trust me that we took everything seriously. We got trashed in the newspapers for our decision. To this day, I believe we decided correctly. I would like to believe that jurors can be fair, no matter the intelligence level.

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u/sorator 9h ago

I have never had a jury return a verdict against any of my clients.

Did you mean to type "guilty verdict"?

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u/SoCalDan 12h ago

Oh I don't know about that. Most Americans are required to get past the fifth grade and definitely past kinniegarden.

This isn't the dark ages.

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u/PeppermintEvilButler 8h ago

When I was in college 20+ yrs ago I worked at a mall, across from my store was one of those Claire's type stores with a manager who when she saw me reading a book said proudly she never reads and didn't read the books in highschool either. There was this thing called Cliff's Notes back then and now the internet. There are a lot more idiots than you can imagine 

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u/optio_____espacio___ 2h ago

Were there long term consequences of that year on probation?

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u/GrabExternal8807 9h ago

So what did you do?

Edit: to be clear I'm joking and maybe that wasn't appropriate. Genuinely sorry you went through that 

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u/Ok-Store 4h ago

What were you accused of, if you don't mind me asking? Curious why the DA thought it was worth his time to nail you.

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u/Doxun 12h ago

Was a bench trial not an option? A judge isn't going to be dumb or ignorant of the law.

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u/friend_jp 11h ago

No, but they’re still human.

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u/jellobowlshifter 6h ago

> Dumb juries are an unethical/incompetent prosecutors dream

No, dumb juries are the exact one and only reason that the defense would ever choose a jury trial.

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u/Ohitsworkingnow 13h ago

But you’re not supposed to prove your innocence? Why does it end up like this. How could the prosecution have any evidence against you if you were innocent.. 

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u/Sad_Mouse_8251 12h ago

When you have a mentally ill person making claims against you, it's not that easy. Unless you have $20,000 in trial lawyer cash to give away.